Author Topic: Homemade Frames - Anyone know how? (Read 23888 times)

Perry · « **on:** January 30, 2014, 03:07:10 pm »

With the high cost of beekeeping supplies going ever higher, I was wondering if anyone knows of a way to build decent homemade frames.
I build all my own boxes, bottom boards, inner and outer covers, even bee escapes. I have to this point not even tried to make my own frames but rather have just bought the pieces and simply assembled them. That was until this latest increase. I understand if a person only has a few hives and only needs a handful of frames at a time, buying the pieces makes sense, but I am in the position of needing to buy 600 deep frames and probably at least that many mediums. The price up here per hundred has just crossed past the dollar mark @ $1.03 each per 100. Add to that the cost of foundation and it is starting to get ridiculous, especially for someone with more than a dozen hives.
I would have no hesitation at making some jigs up to create a bunch and spend a few winters days plugging away and making a couple thousand. I seem to have found a ready market for much of my wooden ware, but if I have to buy the frames and mark them up, there is no advantage to the buyer (or me).
Anyone have any ideas or seen anything that looks interesting?
I stumbled across this but don't have much idea about "shillings and pence" stuff (maybe Barbarien or Denise can help here

)

How about it folks, have your say, maybe together we can invent something and have it patented!

DMLinton · « **Reply #1 on:** January 30, 2014, 03:27:21 pm »

Interesting concept! Especially the modified sidebar shape.

These corners are about 3.5 British pounds per 10 frames. 1 British pound = $1.85 CDN so about 65 cents per frame. No idea what the shipping costs might be. Expensive.

The entrepreneur in me says there has to be some high school student somewhere looking for a part time source of income and would be perfectly capable of cutting out frame parts and maybe even assembling at a competitive price. A building the future today sort of thing.

Crofter · « **Reply #2 on:** January 30, 2014, 03:52:37 pm »

Perry, I made 60 frames very much the style of Mann Lake frames. I used a sled box to hold multiple pieces. I have some pics.

The main strength of the frame is the tight fit of the side bar ears where they slide into the rabbet in three sides of the top bar. This is also the part of the operation which is the hardest to control the dimensions of. Too tight and you will split the ears off; too slack and you lose a lot of glue effectivess and the mechanical puzzle effect.

I am sure Apisbees who has been in the hive manufacturing business can tell you what you would need to do to control the accuracy.

I would have to search them out. but I have seen frame designs that change the shape of the top bar lug so the sidebar butts against a shoulder on the top bar which gets rid of the rabbet on the top bar. Similarly with the bottom bar. I think Joseph Clemens uses this design and I think I saw something similar in Dee Lusby's frames. It is also similar to the British frame mechanics.

I think if a person had the situation that Jen has with her stuck frames problem they might have to be a little more cautious in breaking a frame loose when propolized or brace combed.

I did a rough calculation and came up with about 45 cents material cost per frame but that would need rechecking. Pictures later but I have to go now and rescue my creation in the kitchen.

Edward · « **Reply #3 on:** January 30, 2014, 03:53:54 pm »

This frame is easy to make at home without advanced woodworking machines , but there are a lot of nails to install

mvh Edward

Crofter · « **Reply #4 on:** January 30, 2014, 04:41:25 pm »

Edwards design is the ultimate of simplicity. What I will say is not intended to put it down.The design is very dependent on the nails in end grain for strength plus whatever strength glue would give. Glue on endgrain is its weakest mode. What I remember seeing (but cant find at the moment) has just one or two steps more complicated but a bit quite a bit more strength.

Perry · « **Reply #5 on:** January 30, 2014, 05:11:26 pm »

Good stuff so far folks.
Your frames look almost like factory stuff Crofter. I like the jig for your top bars, and the jointer to make the end bars narrow along the bottom.

Edward, those little white pieces on one of the end bars, are those your spacers, and do you only use them on one side of each end bar? Very interesting.

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #6 on:** January 30, 2014, 05:32:24 pm »

Crofter.. using that planer to make the side bars looks like an excellent method. The way I posted in DIY to make frames is dependent on the height of the blade in the table saw.. The planer would work well, except that its not wide enough to run a 2x12.. how wide is the deck on it 6" ?
Even at 6" cutting the 2x in half would still be pretty simple.. I might have to start looking around for one of those.

G3farms · « **Reply #7 on:** January 30, 2014, 05:47:26 pm »

OOOHHHHH Perry, are you going to wood frames and wax foundation!?!?

I knew it would not be too long before you saw the light!

Just wait til Jack sees this thread you started!

Crofter · « **Reply #8 on:** January 30, 2014, 05:51:13 pm »

Perry, there would be things I would do differently if I were going to make a thousand. I would spend more time making dedicated jigs for each action. You could easily spend a couple of days making jigs I think. The way I cut the rabbet in the top bar sides I located from the outside so any warp, difference in thickness or bit of sawdust under a piece, resulted in slightly different throat so cranky to assemble. The top bar is the most critical piece.

Crofter · « **Reply #9 on:** January 30, 2014, 05:56:04 pm »

Lazy, that jointer was only a four inch but I do have a 6". If I ever did it again I would do the jointer cut first and slice the bars off after. I used 4 inch wide stock because I inherited a bunch of shorts for free.

Edward · « **Reply #10 on:** January 30, 2014, 06:12:16 pm »

Quote from: Crofter on January 30, 2014, 04:41:25 pm

What I will say is not intended to put it down.The design is very dependent on the nails in end grain for strength plus whatever strength glue would give. Glue on endgrain is its weakest mode.

Personally I do not care for these frames and I am fazing them out of my beekeeping in preference of the built in wooden spacers.
Glue and a Nail gun that shoots "U" shaped Nails, also they are wired from the top bar to the bottom bar helps the stability.

Quote from: Perry on January 30, 2014, 05:11:26 pm

Edward, those little white pieces on one of the end bars, are those your spacers, and do you only use them on one side of each end bar?

Yes they are, some use "U" Nails not nailed all the way in,
4 spacers on each frame 2 on each opposite side so it dose not matter where the frame ends up.

They are simple but time consuming to make but do not get glued together by propolis

mvh Edward

Perry · « **Reply #11 on:** January 30, 2014, 07:04:57 pm »

Excellent!

And no G3, I doubt that I would ever go to wax foundation, just far too much effort, trouble, and time consuming to do. I can install a piece of wax coated foundation in about, oh, say 3 seconds.

And if I don't care for the comb the bees have drawn, I just scrape it off, BUT, I know some of you fellers will just never change your ways and are far too stubborn to see the light, even when it's blinding you!

G3farms · « **Reply #12 on:** January 30, 2014, 07:14:54 pm »

Yep the sunlight reflecting off of all that plastic will put a hurt on ya!

One day Perry you will come around!

riverbee · « **Reply #13 on:** January 30, 2014, 09:12:04 pm »

waiting perry for jack to wander in here........

but, i'm with perry on the waxed plastic foundation, i have used both and went to all waxed plastic .....

"know some of you fellers will just never change your ways and are far too stubborn to see the light, even when it's blinding you"....

.....

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #14 on:** January 30, 2014, 10:30:20 pm »

Indeed! I would probably use more plastic foundation.. the frames I make are easily adapted to use it.. I just dont like paying for it.. Dealing with NO foundation has benefits I like, and disadvantages that can be frustrating at times.. in the end, JUST skipping the plastic for 20 new hives is saving myself 800 dollars.. at least to me, that is substantial. That 800 dollars can go toward equipment to make better frames, or take my wife to Maine to see her family. Or even pay for HEAT during this crazy winter.

Edward · « **Reply #15 on:** February 07, 2014, 09:16:47 pm »

Here are two hoffmann spacers if you chose to make your own frames

http://cwynnejones.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=314

http://www.thorne.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1896

mvh Edward

Perry · « **Reply #16 on:** February 08, 2014, 07:44:57 am »

That first style of Hoffman spacer looks interesting, and you get almost twice as many for almost the same price as the second style.
I'm surprised we don't see more of this sort of thing on this side of the pond? With a bunch of those clips, the wooden ware part of manufacturing would be a whole lot easier.

Barbarian · « **Reply #17 on:** February 08, 2014, 06:01:43 pm »

I prefer the Wynne Jones type of Hoffman spacers. The Thorne's type is only 1/4" deep yet the side bars are 3/8" thick.

If I were to make my own frames, I would start with super frames. These would not need Hoffman shoulders. The frames could be spaced with a frame spacer/castellation or even by eye. I might even make Manley side bars.

Crofter · « **Reply #18 on:** February 15, 2014, 11:10:16 am »

Perry, how are your meditations going on frame building?

blueblood · « **Reply #19 on:** February 15, 2014, 02:37:26 pm »

Perry, you and a I have discussed making frames a few times. I think we deduced it was a pita to build in regards to time taken. And, paying the money was worth it. But, I can understand how ya feel with the volume you have. I fall go back and forth on it constantly.