Author Topic: First check this year  (Read 24317 times)

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Offline Jen

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2014, 09:05:16 pm »
Lazy- first off what is IIRC?
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2014, 11:09:43 pm »


   IIRC = If I remember Correctly
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Offline riverbee

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2014, 12:32:18 pm »
"As I learned it.. sugar, patties, syrup, are to keep your bees alive until they can get pollen and nectar, IF they are out of honey in the hive. Giving them more than sugar may cause them to rear brood, and consume stores even faster.  I know little about patties, I have never used them. So I cant say if thats a good or bad thing. The Protein etc is for baby bees, not the adults."

lazy, adult bees need protein and they need more than we can give them through sugar syrup, fondant, etc. for them to be healthy productive bees; nutrition. i started a thread on bee nutrition here:

BEE NUTRITION-FAT BEES-RANDY OLIVER
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Offline Jen

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2014, 01:51:01 pm »
Thanks for posting this Riv- Scientist Randy Oliver is one smart cookie. Have read lots of his stuff.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2014, 03:22:53 pm »
  I'm sure they do need more than just sugar or syrup, but the point is to get them through until they can get their own. In this case they are already bringing in pollen, so a little syrup would be of more benefit than something with less moisture.

  There may be a greater benefit to additional ingredients, but I would question if the benefit was worth the cost, time, and confusion, for the short amount of time they NEED additional help?

   When you figure in adding HBH, and other suppliments to the syrup for 20 + hives the cost grows pretty quickly. 20 hives can go through 100 gallons of syrup if ONLY fed in early spring and late fall. No dearth etc to feed them through.
   I understand everyone doesnt have 20 hives, but after at least one hundred years of subsisting on syrup or sugar when the situation mandates, and doing well, I don't see the need to delve into the bee biology so far that I am counting vitamins and minerals, and spending the extra money to make sure it is perfect, balanced, and contains everything the bees need.. UNLESS thats ALL I was feeding them, and intended to feed them, then yes, I would absolutely agree. But getting them through tough times with sugar or syrup works today just like it did in the late 1700's and all the time in between.. Perhaps even longer.. I am not sure when refined sugar became readily available or when the first beekeeper figured out sugar would keep his bees alive...

   NOW!!  Having said all of that......  if you prefer to give them more, well, like everything beekeeping, thats entirely your choice, and I certainly wont discredit anyone who wishes to do so!!!!!
   BUT, there is something to be said for simplicity. Especially when trying not to confuse someone.
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Offline Jen

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2014, 05:03:45 pm »
    Lazy- ""There may be a greater benefit to additional ingredients, but I would question if the benefit was worth the cost, time, and confusion, for the short amount of time they NEED additional help?""

Well put Scott! as always  ;)

This is the first season I actually have plenty of information on how, when, and what to feed my bees. I can't help feel tho, that feeding just sugar water is equivelant to giving kids kool aid until they can make their own pbj's. It's the mother in me, can't help it.

I will say tho, that if I had 50/100 hives I wouldn't be able to afford it. So it's a bit of a luxury for me to be able to give them some nutrition.


  Lazy- ""for the short amount of time they NEED additional help?""

Our last two springs we were building a fire into June. Pretty certain it's going to be the same weather forcast this spring. In my bees' case, that's not a short amount of time. Granted there will be some nice days in there, but it's not uncommon to wake up to a foot of snow in May.

Anyway, here is a pic of my super cool miner's caudron, there are bees all over both bowls all day long. It's really fun to watch them coming and going, and I make sure each day that there is water there for them.


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Offline iddee

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2014, 05:19:07 pm »
Jen, if you were to separate all the mothers in the USA into 3 groups.

1..Mothers that do not do enough for their kids.

2.. Mothers who do exactly right with their kids.

3.. Mothers that over pamper their kids to the point of being detrimental.

Of 1 and 3, which do you think would include more mothers?

More hobbyist's bees are killed from too much help than from too little.
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Offline Jen

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2014, 06:00:14 pm »
Iddee- ""Of 1 and 3, which do you think would include more mothers? More hobbyist's bees are killed from too much help than from too little.""

Well Mr. Wizard, I wouldn't know, cause I fall into the second catagory. My children are not spoiled by any means, but they have been well cared for.  :P  ;)
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Offline Marbees

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2014, 06:03:25 pm »
Well Mr. Wizard, I wouldn't know, cause I fall into the second catagory. My children are not spoiled by any means, but they have been well cared for.  :P  ;)

Well, I believe you Jen, but what about bees :D :D
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2014, 06:28:30 pm »
LOL!!!!   Mr Wizard!  I like it!  Hope I get the chance to meet Iddee in person some day just so I can call him that!

    And... by all means, if you feel you should give your bees something other than sugar or syrup I'll not argue, I was just giving the best advice I know how! If it works out well and isn't expensive PLEASE post what you are giving them!!
   If it doesnt work out so well don't say anything. Most women cant stand a gloating male!   ;D

  By the way, this is from the post Mrs River linked;

    Of course, everyone knows that you can’t raise kids on sugar alone, but that’s about all that nectar or honey provide.

     :o Just thought I'd add that as I am reading the articles   ;D
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Offline Jen

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2014, 06:57:55 pm »
Marbees- ""Well, I believe you Jen, but what about bees""

     ~This is getting comical~

Well, let me see... As with my kids the same for my bees:

 I expect them to do their chores. They do.

 They are expected to not be sassy with me. Sometimes they are.

 When they were tall enough to stand at the counter they are expected to make their own peanut butter sammich's. They do.

 When they're tall enough to stand at the washing machine they are expected to do their own laundry. They do.

 They are expected to do their homework, but if they need help mama comes to this forum  :)

 If they have a problem, I hope they come and tell me, but sometimes it's dangerously close to real trouble.

 They can have sleep overs but they are expected to be asleep by 9 sharp. Never works.

 They are expected to feed themselves. They do. But! If they are having trouble finding food then mama will take them a bag of healthy groceries.

         Yah.. That about does it, sitting back in my chair, stretching my fingers. Gonna go feed myself  8)
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Offline Jen

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2014, 07:12:01 pm »
Lazy -  ""LOL!!!!   Mr Wizard!  I like it!  Hope I get the chance to meet Iddee in person some day just so I can call him that!""

And I hope that I can meet him in person some day as well so I can give him a 'kisshug pat pat pat'

 8) :laugh: 8)
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Offline riverbee

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2014, 07:25:08 pm »
"I'm sure they do need more than just sugar or syrup, but the point is to get them through until they can get their own. In this case they are already bringing in pollen, so a little syrup would be of more benefit than something with less moisture.
  There may be a greater benefit to additional ingredients, but I would question if the benefit was worth the cost, time, and confusion, for the short amount of time they NEED additional help?
   When you figure in adding HBH, and other suppliments to the syrup for 20 + hives the cost grows pretty quickly. 20 hives can go through 100 gallons of syrup if ONLY fed in early spring and late fall. No dearth etc to feed them through.
   I understand everyone doesnt have 20 hives, but after at least one hundred years of subsisting on syrup or sugar when the situation mandates, and doing well, I don't see the need to delve into the bee biology so far that I am counting vitamins and minerals, and spending the extra money to make sure it is perfect, balanced, and contains everything the bees need.. UNLESS thats ALL I was feeding them, and intended to feed them, then yes, I would absolutely agree. But getting them through tough times with sugar or syrup works today just like it did in the late 1700's and all the time in between.. Perhaps even longer.. I am not sure when refined sugar became readily available or when the first beekeeper figured out sugar would keep his bees alive...
   NOW!!  Having said all of that......  if you prefer to give them more, well, like everything beekeeping, thats entirely your choice, and I certainly wont discredit anyone who wishes to do so!!!!!
   BUT, there is something to be said for simplicity. Especially when trying not to confuse someone. "


lazy, all i am trying to point out without confusion, if anyone reads a little on honey bee nutrition; very beneficial; we will all have a better understanding as to some of the '5 w's', and the 6th, ' how'......what to feed them, when to feed them, why we feed them and how we feed them, to help our bees maintain themselves and a healthy queen and colony.  it is just not about what we feed them, it's about what they have available to forage on to maintain a healthy colony year round and what we might need to do to make up for that and it's not just in feed supplements, it's in our own backyards or rural areas that we live and can plant for the needs of the bees.

cost? simplicity? what do we feed ourselves? and what is the cost?  i am not directing this at you, i hear this many times, but the simple fact is, keeping bees is costly and it is not simple sometimes.  if we understand the basic dynamics of what is essential in a honey bee hive as far as their requirements for pollen and nectar, etc, then other things will fall into place for us to make the decisions on many other things, including what we feed them, and when, and like i said,  it's not all about what we feed them and what supplements are in them, (although i think this might help), it's more than that. 
how much money do each of us spend on equipment, and miticides? sheds and honey houses? but we think nothing of the nutrition/the immune system of the honey bee, and wonder why we have lost our bees.

honey bee nutrition; put it in context of what you feed your farm animals; cows, pigs, horses, goats, chickens, etc?
how about ourselves?.....we are what we eat, so are our honey bees.  a mother bearing a child cannot pass on health to a child in the womb without some semblance of nutrition to the fetus in the womb.  if all we do is consume junk food, drink or use some sort of drug excessively and never exercise our bodies, we will pay the price naturally; and to a certain degree, mothers and fathers pass the genetics and poor habits to their offspring.
our immune systems are just as complex as the bugs we keep in a box.  our honey bees have immune systems too.  can we help them? or do we hurt them?
so why not take care of them the best we can.

down off the soap box, and my apologies if i have offended anyone not my intent.....
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2014, 08:13:48 pm »
Oh no, not at ALL!!  Not easily offended in most circumstances! If I was easily offended Id have already driven over to see Iddee after he played whos on second with me a few weeks ago..   ;D
   Actually enjoying the conversation and researching what research I can find about it...  but, It is beginning to confuse me.

   I am reading, and re reading the posts on the first link about Fat Bees.. I am up through part three, and have yet to see anything detrimental about feeding sugar or syrup. In fact he recommends it multiple times, including HFCS; 

   Colonies can also be fed pure granulated sugar during winter—they process the crystals just fine, if the bees in the cluster can reach them! Do not feed bees any impure or unrefined sugars—they can cause poisoning or dysentery. Feed nothing but syrup made from refined (white) cane or beet granulated sugar, or clear HFCS spec’d for bee feed.

   So... I am a bit confused..
   I feed Mega bee, and or Ultra Bee with some real pollen in early Spring/Late fall, along with syrup, and apparently this is the right thing to do to "fatten" the bees Vitellogenin reserves.
  (first I have read about this, TYVM for the post)
  At which point, if done correctly, they can now be well prepared for winter, and last several months on Honey OR heavy syrup etc as pointed out above, and do VERY well on this diet until the real pollen begins to come in..
   Also noted, is that if they are getting pollen, but putting away little nectar, LIGHT (33%) syrup is recommended. In fact he recommends light syrup for several reasons and situations......
  and lets not forget the earlier statement;
   Of course, everyone knows that you can’t raise kids on sugar alone, but that’s about all that nectar or honey provide.

   So I am even more confused about the prejudice against syrup or sugar.....     :'(
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Offline Jen

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2014, 08:25:56 pm »
Lazy ""Actually enjoying the conversation and researching what research I can find about it...  but, It is beginning to confuse me.""

Oh Thank Gawd, so nice to hear when a seasoned beek is confused! 
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Offline Jen

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #55 on: February 05, 2014, 08:52:03 pm »
Lazy and River, I'm not all together opposed to sugar syrup, but only for short periods, say a couple of weeks maybe. At this point in my beek career, this week actually, I realized that as busy as my bees are, and just at the beginning of Feb. I might be feeding for 4-5 more months. THAT is a lot of sugar feeding without any nutrition that they get from blooms. I have known for some time that honey contains C, and B vitamins and lots of minerals.

I like the idea of trying to keep some of the nutrition for them thru the winter, especially these days when there are pesticides in their foraging, and breath in our air. No I'm not an evironmentalist! But I do know that honey has nutrition in it that they specifically design for themselves.

Isn't this what us bee guardians are trying to do on the planet now, is try and get our strong bees back?

I'll try and find the article where France has now proven the the flora in the gut of a honey bee is amazingly close to the flora in the human gut. That is one reason why honey is so good and healing for our gut. If I put nutritional honey in my gut, I will try and put good food in the honey bee gut. Until I have stashes of honey frames in the freezer, I'll try and keep winter patties on hand... along with sugar syrup. No HFCS. No! Not this girl!

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5568/2
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Offline Jen

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #56 on: February 05, 2014, 08:53:58 pm »
Lazy, I am enjoying this topic as well. It means a lot to me, as you can see.



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Offline riverbee

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2014, 12:00:54 am »
lazy~
"As I learned it.. sugar, patties, syrup, are to keep your bees alive until they can get pollen and nectar, IF they are out of honey in the hive. Giving them more than sugar may cause them to rear brood, and consume stores even faster.  I know little about patties, I have never used them. So I cant say if thats a good or bad thing. The Protein etc is for baby bees, not the adults."

protein is needed by all in the hive, and is addressed and discussed in any material you will find on honey bee nutrition.  lazy, my post was not to debate the merits of sugar syrup or anything added to the hive to feed. just added my post to help educate about the benefits one would receive from some knowledge of honey bee nutritional needs in our environments and all the challenges we face as beekeepers.  this starts with our natural resources and goes forward, and then determines, based on our weather, pollen and nectar dearths, disease and pest factors; why we feed, when we feed, what we feed, and how we feed. you also mentioned costs. i will refer back to my post # 53.
in my humble opinion, having this knowledge will help us be better beekeepers.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2014, 12:27:58 am »
Every bit of Knowledge helps...  well, sometimes it gets me into trouble.. but USUALLY it helps!
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Offline Jen

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Re: First check this year
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2014, 12:14:38 pm »
Here's a bit of information that came home with hubby last evening. He and our friend Rich went to southern california for 6 days, family stuff. On their way home they stopped in Fresno, the center of CA agriculture , to shop at Dadant. There were commercial beeks coming in with their two hundred gallon containers that fit in the back of their trucks, and having them filled with Honey Bee Healthy, or whatever other supplements the beeks needed for feeding.

My guys were intently listening to how these commercial beeks were complaining of no nectar coming in. None.

Not enough water ~
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