In need of experienced opinions

[PappyRick]

Hey folks.  PappyRick here.  I wanted to update you on my first year progress and get your opinions about what I saw today on hive inspections.

My two hives are still perking along.  The configuration is 2 Deeps.  We harvested about 57 pounds of honey this year, which I was really surprised about because I really did not expect to see honey until next year.  I have had ups and downs (mostly from my own thoughts, or actions), but the bees have proven to be quite resilient.  This has been a LOT of fun.

 I'm in southern Illinois.  Temps lately have been upper 50s to mid 70s, but the swings are pretty inconsistent.  Anyway, we went out today to inspect.  This was the end of our second application of ApiGuard, so the plan was to remove the ApiGuard, feed them 2:1 for winter stores, and find the Queen in each hive.  The mite counts were somewhere around 4 - 5 per hundred using a sugar roll test. I had noticed that the bees activity was significantly reduced after the first two weeks of ApiGuard on the last inspection (2 weeks ago).  Today, on each hive, the top deep was mostly full of honey, but not all capped.  The bottom deep on each hive was mostly built out comb, but no eggs and no brood, with a small amount of capped honey on the edges.  There seemed to me to be a fair amount of pollen - particularly in the bottom deep.  I spotted the Queen in one of the hives, but not the other.  Bee populations in both hives are decidedly lower than they were a month ago.

So I'm sure my questions are typical first year beekeeper-esque.  I am concerned about no eggs - should I be at this time of year for my location? When does a queen stop laying eggs in preparation for winter?  Would the bees in the hive now be winter bees?  I would think so since there are no eggs and no brood, but it still seems early to me (Of course, I don't know since this is my first year). We are feeding 2:1 more as an insurance to try and make sure the bees have enough stores, but the top deeps are fairly full of honey/nectar.  Do the bees necessarily cap their winter stores? My plan is to go back out next week and bring more 2:1 for another feeding.  Temps are expected to be down to 38 F in the next couple of days.

Thanks in advance for your learned opinions.  PappyRick

[apisbees]

What you described is normal for this time of year. a slow down in nectar gathering will cause the queens to stop laying. Do not over feed as bees need space in empty cells to cluster in.

[PappyRick]

Thank you Apis.  I was hoping that was the case, and since both hives looked essentially the same, I figured things were probably normal, although somewhat disconcerting.  I had seen somewhere that the recommended honey stores amounted to about 14 full deep frames, but I don't know if that is capped honey, or cells filled with nectar.  Both top deeps felt like they weighed about the same when I lifted them (guessing about 60 - 70 pounds), but one of the hives was clearly not capped.  The other thing I noticed was a few (15 - 20) bees in brood cells in the bottom deep that had failed to emerge. I didn't see anything that indicated brood problems - no chalkbrood, EFB, or any other issues, just dead bees in the cells.

As a first timer, it is sometimes difficult to not panic when you see something unexpected - which is usually every inspection.  I don't remember mention in my beekeeping beginner class of what the hive should or would look like in the fall (probably was mentioned).  I suspect that sitting by all winter hoping the hives are OK will be agonizing.  I also suspect that the first time I open the hives in the spring will be nerve-racking. 

[Perry]

Apis is correct. Don't worry about those few cells with brood in the lower box that didn't emerge, more than likely they got chilled when the cluster moved away from them. The bees will eventually remove them, maybe next summer when they really need the space.

[Sour Kraut]

Sounds about normal to me.

Where in Southern IL ?

I'm in Jacksonville, 35 miles W of Springfield.

[Lburou]

Your description of the way your hives looked sounds pretty normal.  I'm not trying to upset your apple cart, but 4-5% mite infestation after a mite treatment is higher than I would want to see going into winter.  With no brood, one Oxalic Acid Vaporization treatment would fix it (killing 93-95% of the remaining mites in the hive). 

[Bakersdozen]

PappyRick, you might be a little late in doing your mite treatments.  Around here, we try to get those treatments such as Apiguard, done after harvest. Our major nectar flow is almost always over by July 4.  You are not that far north, so I would think anytime after harvest. With Oxalic Acid, November is a good time to treat as there should be little or no brood.  When you treated your queen has already laid her winter population.  You want that population to be as healthy as possible going into winter.  You treated winter bees that have already been exposed to mite transmitted viruses.  I won't scold too badly, at least you treated.
I agree with Lee, 5-6 mites per 100 is a lot.  Do your sugar roll test again in the spring before the major nectar flow starts.  Our major nectar flow starts in April with the fruit tree bloom.  I believe the new recommendations are to treat is you see 1 in 100 bees.
Our weather has been up and down, just like yours.  But cold winter winds will be here.
Another factor I would consider is doing inspections this late in the year.  The bees have propolized the hive to keep winter winds out.  Everytime you inspect you break open seals that they have put in place.  That being said...I will contradict myself.  It's GREAT that you are doing inspections!  That is how you learn.  Since this is your first year, you need to learn as much as possible.
Keep up the good work!

[Lburou]

I found a pertinent set of three Randy Oliver videos on managing mite populations...HERE.  Rick, you already have the data to plug in to his spreadsheet to predict mite population growth in your hives.  Check it out and note what he says about a hive going into winter with your mite counts.
(Keep in mind that a sugar roll reveals 20% fewer mites than an alcohol wash).

We are still doing OAV treatments here on mild weather days, because there are fewest mites under cell capings now -broodless periods are perfect for quick acting mite treatments like oxalic acid in vapor or dribble.  My hives have run about 3 mites per 100 bees on pretreatment counts (OAV three or four times per year) and I treat almost year around because of our mild climate. 

With your conscientious hive management Rick, you should be a successful beekeeper. 

[Lburou]

Most of your questions have been answered Rick, but here is a follow up with my opinions in bold:

...Do the bees necessarily cap their winter stores? Usually, but sometimes not.  Even if all the honey is capped at the beginning of winter, you will see uncapped cells over winter because they are accessing the honey as time goes by.

...My plan is to go back out next week and bring more 2:1 for another feeding.  Temps are expected to be down to 38 F in the next couple of days.  Bees will stop taking syrup when the temps start to stay below 50 F or so, so it will soon be a moot point for this year.  As Apis has said, if the cells above the brood nest are full already, there is little value added by feeding, and negative effects are possible from crowding the brood nest now.

JMO   

[PappyRick]

Thanks for all the responses. Just to update, and sorry for the length, I ended up losing both hives. When I went out a week after the last mite treatment one of the hives had left and the other was weak. When I went out in mid Nov to remove the 2:1, I found a tree limb had fallen and dislodged the 2 deeps on the second hive and hence drove out the hive. I have removed both hives to the house, froze the frames, cleaned up the bodies, and stored the equipment for the Spring. I have ordered 2 nucs for this Spring. VERY disappointing.
To answer some response questions, "southern Illinois" is more specifically Greenville. The 4-5% mite count was actually before treatment. I didn't feel comfortable with doing a post-treatment mite count because the hives looked weak to me. Thus I don't know how effective the treatment was. We did see a lot of mites on the pull out panel on the screened BB. Did not see anything that explained to me why they left, but the frames, comb, and honey looked good. Thought maybe ApiGuard was the culprit, but can't find much experience that supports that theory.
My plan is to load the nucs into two deeps since the brood comb looks good, all of my deep frames are built out, and there is plenty of honey in some of the deep frames, though some of the cappings are damaged (by my less than delicate handling). I will also use the medium frames that have comb built out as well to get a jump on the nectar flow. Do you folks see any problem with my plan, or ideas on how to introduce a nuc into an already developed hive? Given the same situation, how would you handle this?
Thanks in advance for some sage advice.
PappyRick

[CBT]

I would not give a new nuc filled out frames. Let the young bees build out that comb keep the drawn comb in a safe place lots of uses for it later in the year like baiting a swarm trap... imho

[PappyRick]

Thanks CBT. I can do that. I started with 2 hives last year, and (ever optimistic) now have enough equipment for 3 complete hives, so I have plenty of new frames as well. Question: how would you reintroduce honey/pollen deep frames and used (empty) brood deep frames? Seems drawn frame in honey supers is easy. Thanks PappyRick

[apisbees]

Drawn comb is golden if you have it to give to the bees. I would, it will give the queen a place to lay when you transfer them. A nuc doesn't have the excess population to gather the nectar build the comb and look after all the baby bees being developed. After a month in the hive when given drawn comb you will end up with close to 50% more bees in the hive than if left with foundation to draw. Then this population will grow exponentially from there.

[Bakersdozen]

Drawn comb is golden

Agree!  So glad you carefully stored your comb.  Giving it to new packages or nucs could make the difference in producing a honey crop or not.  If the bees have to use all their resources and energy to build new comb, they will be behind and existing colony.  I have given splits and packages drawn comb in the brood boxes and honey supers and easily got a honey crop that first year.

[CBT]

Thank you for the redirection on the combs I’ll do more of that giving drawn comb this year. That’s what makes this place great. Sorry for the less than great advice Pappy.

[PappyRick]

No worries CBT.  I am beginning to understand the adage of asking 10 beekeepers a question and ending up with 11 answers.  There are so many paths one can take.  Without a forum such as this, one is left to map out their own path based on inexperience.  At least that would be the case for me.  I made a lot of mistakes this year, but I also picked up a lot of info here that has helped me (not so much my bees this year unfortunately).  Hopefully this info will help my future bees.  While it has been very frustrating losing both of my hives this year, I'm not one to give up until I can convince myself that I succeeded on the endeavor.  May be a low bar .

I'm thinking that since I have about 25 frames of drawn brood comb, and about 15 frames of varying honey/pollen (some full of capped honey, some with pollen, nectar, and some capped), I will take my two nucs this spring and fill out the box with honey on the outside and brood frames on the inside near the nuc frames.  Since the whole box will be drawn out, I am assuming that I will add the second deep, which will also be very close to completely built out.  Maybe I'll put a little more honey in the top boxes.  Both of the hives will probably be set with 2 deeps each when I install the nucs.  I'm thinking I'll give them a couple of weeks, and then place a honey super on which also is mostly drawn comb.

Thanks for the advice.  I'm anxious to get going again.  Problem is that it is supposed to get down to -6 F tonight. Yuck!!!  PappyRick

[Lburou]

... I will take my two nucs this spring and fill out the box with honey on the outside and brood frames on the inside near the nuc frames.  Since the whole box will be drawn out, I am assuming that I will add the second deep,...
...Both of the hives will probably be set with 2 deeps each when I install the nucs.  I'm thinking I'll give them a couple of weeks, and then place a honey super on which also is mostly drawn comb...

Your drawn combs are priceless and bees should take to them and advance rapidly.  However, a NUC can have too much space.  Bees, in general, do better when they are a bit crowded.  That way they can patrol their space regularly and keep wax moth and small hive beetle larva under control.  With a smaller  space to keep up to temperature, they can raise more brood in the same period of time. 

You will need a few rounds of brood to expand much beyond a five frame NUC in the beginning, all that extra room takes time to fill with brood, bees and food.  As a general rule, I like to add frames of foundation or comb when the population expands to cover  frames already in the hive with bees.  Different localities and weather conditions will provide a wide range of how fast the population will grow. The number of extra frames you add at one time will be dictated by your local wax moth and small hive beetle pressure.  Many people add an entire super, but I wouldn't do that until 80% of the frames of the first hive body were covered with bees on both sides of each frame.

My area has a lot of robbing pressure.  NUCs are vulnerable to that pressure.  Having enough bees to cover the frames in a box helps them defend their space against robbing.  There are a lot of variables that ebb and flow from location to location and year to year.  HTH   

[PappyRick]

I like that thought, Lburou. I sometimes have to check my enthusiasm with a dose of reality. Makes a lot of sense to me that I can provide more real estate than my population can protect. Thanks. PappyRick

[CBT]

I have put 5 frames of bees, brood and food with 5 frames foundation in a 10 frame deep and have to add another box in 2-3 weeks in late spring. That’s what the adding foundation was about.