Minnesota Hygienic

[neillsayers]

Anyone have any experience with this line of bees?

[Lburou]

I bought two NUCs of Minnesota H. six years ago.  They were feisty and stuck everything together with excessive propolis.  Not much honey.  Requeened with Bweaver queens. 

[riverbee]

neil, i personally don't have experience but do know several beeks here that went with them, not just once but year after year.
one of those beeks, her father kept bees and she has been keeping bees for 35 years. she tried the mn hygenics for about 4 or 5 years i think.

not my experience, just what chatter we had........these beeks typically lost the majority of their hives before winter or early winter months. 
yes, treated for mites, yes, left plenty of stores and fed to get through our winter months. minnesota and wisconsin.

this is doc spivaks developed line, they are italians, and the claim is to "have a high degree of hygienic behavior known to be effective against diseases of the brood such as American foulbrood and chalkbrood. This trait is thought to be two behaviors acting in Minnesota hygienic italian queen synergy, the uncapping of diseased cells, then the removal of the pathogen along with the pupae,effectively disrupting the disease life cycle. Another trait, Varroa Sensitive Hygiene (VSH) is especially effective at targeting varroa mites."

first off, Italians do not winter well here in minnesota. italian queens lay very late in the season. and italian queens do not curb laying if there is a dearth of nectar or pollen, she just keeps laying.  italians will blow through stores in fall when nothing is coming in, there is no conservation. mite loads will be high.

my beek friends that kept them made comments relative to the mites in their colonies and thought or experienced losses higher than if they had kept carnis. some additional comments about the 'hygenic line' as reported to me were disappointing. just repeating what was passed on to me.

as lee said, the beek friends reported the bees to propolize the heck out of everything (not a bad thing, just a pita) and honey harvests varied. this could also be the environment the bees were kept in here. i guess what i learned from all these beeks was the disappointment in varroa resistance and winter hardiness.

don't want to discourage you neil, just giving you some input from several beeks here i know that won't purchase these bees/queens.

[Chip Euliss]

I kept MN Hygenics for many years and switched to VSH (poline; also terrific bees) and a few other hygienic lines/races only because it was difficult getting queens shipped to me in spring.  I was happy with their performance.  Never had an issue with honey production or with propolis.  Although propolis creates more work for you, it has demonstrated benefits on the health of honey bees.  My memory may be poor but my recollection is that propolis stimulates their immune system.  I believe the study I recall was Marla Spivak's and she actually stapled propolis traps to the inside of the test hives to maximize propolis deposition--hives with less propolis had higher mortality, etc.  They sell propolis in health food stores for humans so the health benefits to bees didn't come as a great surprise, to me at least.  A fairly clean study as I recall.  I tend to view things differently from most folks (probably because I was a scientist before I retired so I naturally question the norm) but I've never faulted Italians for laying brood late in the season because that also means you have more "winter bees" to kick start things the next fall.  Evolution would have certainly weeded that trait out in most areas of the globe but winter bees are the guys that get the hive going the next spring so if you can keep enough food in the hive for to last the winter, it can be a huge benefit too.  You'll see massive numbers of dead bees in front of a MN Hygenic hive (and Italians in general) in fall but that's the field force dying off and it's perfectly natural.  Winter bees don't fly till springand they can live up to 6 months versus a 45 day life span for a summer bee; the difference is mostly in their diet which changes as soon as the bees start foraging flights.  Winter bees fly in spring and when they switch diets, it starts their timeclock (death clock?) ticking.  I've been sending bees to California for almond production for many years so winter bees means a stronger work force (and a fatter economic return for me since I'm paid based on how many bees are in my hives) when they go in almonds.  That said, I almost always winter some in North Dakota that don't fit on the truck and MN Hygenics winter just fine in North Dakota as long as you manage them correctly.  You just have to accept that there are more bees in the hive and feed them until they get heavy enough to make it to spring.  It is true that they eat a lot more (especially before the large field force dies off) and can starve if not properly fed and conditioned for winter but supplemental feed is cheap in comparison to the value of the hive.  Other races/lines that can quickly ramp up (and down) brood production (carnis, buckfast etc) based on availability of food resources coming into the hive tend to self "manage" or regulate their populations so their keeper doesn't have to keep such a close watch on them but watching and taking care of bees is what we do!  Even running mostly Italian lines, I still feed heavily in January to stimulate early brood production because before the almonds bloom, there are essentially no other flowers available to get the bees to ramp up brood production.  Thus, my objective when I feed in January is to "trick" the bees into thinking spring has arrived so they start rearing brood like crazy.  MN hygenics do get mites (as do all races/lines) and even though they have innate characteristics to break the reproductive cycle of the mites, that doesn't mean you don't have to worry about mites or treat for them.  Always check your loads and treat if needed, especially during critical periods like winter when mites only have workers (and the queen) to parasitize.  I've switched to a mite control regime of maximum strength formic acid (MAQS) treatment in spring and oxalic acid vaporization in late summer/fall and my mite loads have never been lower.  I vaporize as soon as the honey supers are pulled and when all the bees are staged for shipping, I vaporize them every 5 days for 5 iterations (to cover an entire brood cycle plus a little).  I also vaporize them in California in January when we go out and prepare them for almond pollination.  It's inexpensive and the vaporizer I use takes 12 seconds or so to treat a hive so why not?

All of this probably didn't help much but hopefully will help you put things into perspective as you decide what lines/races of bees will work best for you.  All have their strengths and all have their weaknesses and you'll find advocates for nearly every line or race of bee available today.  Understanding the unique traits of the bees you are using will help you tailor a management regime that complements the characteristics of your bees, plus it will make you a better beekeeper.  Good Luck!

[neillsayers]

Many thanks Lee, RB, and Chip,

This is very valuable info. Here's what I'm planning:
 I'm essentially starting over this spring. I have contracted for 6 nucs. 2 Minn. Hyg., 2 Pol Line and 2 VSH Carnies. I intend to keep them in the same yard while keeping careful notes. If there is one I like over the others I will requeen with that stock.
 I also will have swarm traps in the forest near me to try to trap local ferals. In three years I have lost 6 swarms with queens to this forest and 2 were purebred russian. Even if those swarms didn't survive I'm betting the local ferals carry some of their genetics. This last fall my three hives came under relentless attack from yellow jackets until 2 absconded and one died out (dead queen was among the carnage).
 Naturally, I plan to get proactive with trapping the yellow jackets. I had never seen anything like it and similar reports came in from other area keeps. By the time I caught on to what was happing it was too little, too late.

Can't wait for spring!

[riverbee]

hey neil...........best of bee wishes to you for spring!

would enjoy reading any posts from you on the progress of the nucs!

[neillsayers]

Well,

My order for spring fell through. My supplier has a family health emergency and won't be able to fill orders this year.

Iff anyone knows a nuc supplier in the Ozark region please let me know.

[Lburou]

Neil, I ran into this post on another bulletin board, you could just start a couple NUCs with these queens from Louisiana:

Taking orders for mated Minnesota Hygienic Italian queens
1-9 $22 10-24 $21 25-99 $20
100 plus $19
Contact Bayou Hives LLC
318-359-2096
saucier.l@yahoo.com

[neillsayers]

Thanks Lee,

I'll send them an email.

[Some Day]

Neil,

I and a few others in our bee club order MHQ from this guy:

https://www.bbhoneyfarms.com/store/p-77-honey-bees-mn-hygenic-queens-

[neillsayers]

Thanks Some Day,
 I've bookmarked it.

[riverbee]

ted sennes (b & b honey farm), very knowledgeable and experienced beek, also excellent customer service.
i don't purchase bees/queens from them, just everything else.........

[neillsayers]

Thanks RB and all others,

It looks like i've found a local breeder about 1-1/2 hours away with locally raised Italian nucs this spring. I'll see how they do and requeen with hygienic stock if it is seems called for. I've bookmarked all the links you shared so I have a resource to go to.

[Lburou]

I learned something the other day on the Bee-L list pertaining to hygienic bees.  It is the difference between 'hygienic' bees and Varroa Sensitive hygiene (VSH) traits in bees. 

Hygienic bees are tested by counting the percentage of frozen pupa removed in a 24 hour period.  More pupa removed, equals more hygienic.  The VSH trait is measured by actually counting mites in the cells right at the honeycomb.  VSH bees sense mites under the cell cappings and then remove them, sometimes patching the hole in the cell cap in the process, sometimes removing the pupa too.   

Russian bees exhibit the VSH trait in spades, other bees, not so much.  All bees have VSH traits, but can be bred to enhance mite removal from capped cells.  VSH traits are recessive so tend to go back to 18-19% with outcrossings.  With continual breeding, VSH bees remove upwards of 35-38% of the mites in cells.  Russian bees are in the 65% range, but can revert back to the 20% range  with outcrossings in open mating.  All my numbers here are from memory...Close to actual numbers but not exact, so read this post for general points, not specific percentages for these bees.  If you can cite actual percentages, feel free to educate me with actual numbers. 

[neillsayers]

Lee,
I have also been following that thread on Bee-L with interest. Since I'm starting all over, I feel I owe it to myself to try other lines. If I live long enough maybe I'll get a broad range of experience.