Author Topic: Laying worker hive  (Read 1089 times)

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Offline Jen

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Re: Laying worker hive
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2019, 01:47:48 am »
Ooooh bummer Mikey! No beekeeper wants to hear that  :sad:
There Is Peace In The Queendom

Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Laying worker hive
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2019, 09:51:35 am »
Update, the great ol USPS can't find her 5 day's later.
She was in Greensboro N.C. on Thursday, the day she was supposed to be delivered, they still don't know where she's at.

Oh dear.  :sad:  She probably fell behind or under something in a delivery vehicle.

Offline tecumseh

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Re: Laying worker hive
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2019, 06:32:20 am »
but an excellent example of why you should NOT do any kind of splitting (which is really not the theme of this thread) until you have queens in hand and until you have carefully examined the queen in the introduction package.

Offline Mikey N.C.

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Re: Laying worker hive
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2019, 05:26:35 pm »
Update:  post office calls me this morning at 8:30 said
Q had arrived, sent wifey to get ( I was at work) told her to open up and see if they are still alive , give them 2 drops of water and 2 drops of honey. They were all alive 8 days later (WOW). Now I haven't made split yet because I thought that shipped Q was a goner , so was going to make split this afternoon but it's raining , so going to leave work tomorrow at 10:00 and make split go back to work .Getting off work at 4:30 , come home and do intro and see if bee accept. Please any info would be appreciated on how to keep Q alive and. Is 5 hrs. enough time for split to know they are Q-less?

Offline iddee

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Re: Laying worker hive
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2019, 06:29:53 pm »
Go home, make split, install queen, leave cork in. House bees will feed queen in 30 minutes, through the wire. Remove cork  and release queen in 4 days.
“Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me... Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”
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Offline tedh

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Re: Laying worker hive
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2019, 08:46:31 pm »
The down and dirty no nonsense queen introduction! I like it!  Circumstances being what they were we did the same thing earlier this season.  Heck, I think it was a queen lost in the mail and iddee gave us the suggestion!  Why does that seem so long ago?
Share that which you have an abundance of.  In doing so both the giver and receiver are enriched.

Offline tecumseh

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Re: Laying worker hive
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2019, 07:05:37 am »
to follow up. a bit on Iddee's comments... you can (not certain 4 days is required) watch how the bees are reacting to the queen in the introduction cage (basically are they feeding her or are they trying to sting her thru the cage wire) and release the queen directly if they are feeding here or do a slow release with the candy if they appear to be be trying to sting her thru the wire. 
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Offline Jen

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Re: Laying worker hive
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2019, 07:25:06 pm »
Hi Tech, it's curious this year in upper northern Calif why so many of out introduced queens have been killed by the bees. We don't know if it has something to do with all the fires we had last year. Big question. So us seasoned beekeepers have found that a 'minimum' of 5 days is required before releasing them. And, some of the seasoned beeks have said that even 10 days is exceptable. So far, I have found that to be true.
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Offline tecumseh

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Re: Laying worker hive
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2019, 07:34:34 am »
interesting comment Jen.  of course the genetics of the bees can also play a part in the release.  my friend Chuck Reburn over in Austin Texas did a nice video about watching the behavior of the bees on the introduction cage and then making a decision on introduction.  I have accidentally just toss a mated queen into a small nucleus and had her do just fine (definitely not a recommended procedure).  The size of the spit and age demographics of the adult workers can also be a factor when any of these processes work or not.

Fires last year certainly impacted the quality (or lack thereof) of the queens I purchased from California.  Of about 25 ALL were weakly mated and did not last longer than 30 days. These were fall queens which I introduced into 4 frame nucs.

Offline Mikey N.C.

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Re: Laying worker hive
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2019, 02:56:20 pm »
Update: been busy and haven't replied. Made split from 2 strong hives 2 frames of capped brood with bee's ,1 frame 3/4 capped the rest 5-6 day larvae, 1 frame fully capped honey , 1 frame 3/4 of pollen with capped honey on top. All other frames were drawn comb. Used 2 inch shim on top, layed Q cage on top of frames. Waited about 2 hrs.  Looked in and bee's were all over cage (heads down- tails up) no glove ran my finger thru them, they just moved to the side and went rite back feeding. Waited another hour went back out lifted lid nurse bee's were all over her , ran my finger back through and they went back to feeding. Pulled cork and released Q she crawled out and they balled her. about half the size of your fist so waited another 1hr.  went back out opened ball was still there, so ran my finger through ball and she ran about 2 inches then straight down

Offline Mikey N.C.

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Re: Laying worker hive
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2019, 03:03:51 pm »
So don't know if nurse bee's were feeding or smelling her pheromone ?

Offline Mikey N.C.

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Re: Laying worker hive
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2019, 03:05:49 pm »
Now remember she's been in mail for 8 day's.

Offline Jen

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Re: Laying worker hive
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2019, 12:12:45 am »
Interesting Mikey. I'm still a little confused on the balling thing. I was under the impression that when she is getting balled, that the bees will be stinging her. Then I heard another suggestion in that when the bees are balling a queen they are trying to suffocate her.

Two times now I have pushed the balling bees away and saved the queen, put her back into a cage and give her more time to be excepted, only to find her dead.
There Is Peace In The Queendom

Offline Mikey N.C.

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Re: Laying worker hive
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2019, 09:20:07 pm »
Update: State bee inspector came today, late split was successful Wayne's Q is fat and sassy. And marked 😄
Mother hives 3 ten deeps , are laying like crazy and bringing in orange pollen, Did sugar roll . 6 count said 2%

Offline Mikey N.C.

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Re: Laying worker hive
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2019, 09:06:15 pm »
Late split 3weeks ago laying good, state inspector said 5 over 5 it.I Will do it. She said start top feeders 1 to 1
on all hives.

Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Laying worker hive
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2019, 08:47:13 am »
This information is too late to help Mikey, but I will post it for future readers that may be in the same predicament.
I just finished rereading an article on laying workers and how to fix it.  The article, written by Paul Hizsnyal, appeared in the July 2016 issue of Bee Culture.  For this to work the beekeeper needs another strong colony and a strong nuc with a good queen.  The time of year could also play a role in success.  I wouldn't bother in the fall.  Take your losses in the fall.
The instinct for survival is so strong in honey bees that when faced suddenly with a queenless or non laying queen situation, workers  can sense the lack of brood pheromone within 24 hours.  The workers may attempt to replace her using existing larvae,  even using 4 day old larvae.  This will result in a small undeveloped queen that is inferior.  The new queen faces the usual challenges during mating flights and the colony could still find themselves without a queen and chaos with in the colony begins by workers attempting to lay eggs.  Multiple eggs in cells, which are all unfertilized will result in drones.  These drones can even be smaller than normal because they were laid in worker cells.  The result is definitely a hive that is out of balance with nature. 
The suggested fix:
Switch the queenless hive with another queen  right colony.  When the foragers return to their original location, they will find themselves in a chaotic colony lacking queen pheromone. The foragers will also not find worker brood pheromone.  They will restore order with in 48 hours and "eliminate" those pesky laying workers.  Drone brood should be scraped out or replace the frames.
Requeening the queenless colony should be done by placing a strong nuc on top of the queenless colony using the newspaper method.  Make sure the nuc does not have a entrance and they have to chew and mingle slowly with the queenless colony.  Leave the nuc in place, undisturbed, for at least 5 days which will ensure they don't kill the new queen in the nuc.   
The population in the laying worker hive will have dwindled through all this chaos.  The nuc will replace the lost work force and life should be good again.

This should work under the following conditions. 1. The queenless colony still has a large population. 2. Schedule manipulation during good weather.  3. Start manipulation after 10:00 a.m. when foragers are out of the hive. 4. When introducing a new queen, she should be in a nuc on top without an outside entrance.


Offline iddee

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Re: Laying worker hive
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2019, 09:00:17 am »
 Sounds like a lot of unneeded work and a gamble. For less work and less gamble, I would remove 5 frames of drone brood, shake out all the bees 10 feet in front of the hive, place the 5 frames from the nuc in place of the drone frames and place the hive back on the nucs stand. Let the LW bees beg their way in. All done in 5 to 10 minutes, and much safer for the nuc queen.
“Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me... Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”
― Shel Silverstein

Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Laying worker hive
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2019, 10:02:18 am »
iddee, you might run the risk of the queenless hive hive killing the queen in all the chaos.
Another method would be to simply combine the Laying worker hive with a queen right colony.  You do run the risk of the queen being killed and then you have 2 colonies without a queen.  You just doubled your problem.  If you use a nuc and they kill the queen, you haven't lost as much.
On the other hand, if you are a beginner with only have a couple of hives, you probably aren't going to have any nucs available.  In that case, I would do a shake out.

Offline iddee

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Re: Laying worker hive
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2019, 12:44:51 pm »
First, I have never lost a queen from beggars wanting to come in. I have lost queens in combines.
Second, I suggested using a nuc, except using the pollen and honey frames from the LW hive to boost it.
No, I didn't double my problem, I halved my gamble.
“Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me... Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”
― Shel Silverstein