Author Topic: Another Mean Hive (Read 5230 times)

The15thMember · « **on:** June 09, 2023, 04:55:47 pm »

I caught a swarm sometime in April that I'm almost certain didn't come from my yard. Two weeks ago when I inspected them, they were acting very testy. I had some family in the bee yard with me, and I had to ask them to leave because the hive was getting too unruly for my comfort with inexperienced beekeepers there. I had planned to requeen them today, but when I opened them up they were like a national defense force. I couldn't even begin to inspect them, much less find a queen. I was stung 5 times and chased out of the apiary halfway through the first box. It was all I could do to replace the frames correctly and close them back up. They were very reactive to my breathing; every time I exhaled my face was assaulted by about 150-200 bees. I left all my gear up there, and I'll have to wait until it gets dark to get it because there were mean bees everywhere. This hive is 4 8-frame mediums tall, and I did have the wherewithal to put my snelgrove board between boxes 2 and 3 to sort of halve them to help me manage them next time.

I've never had a hive act like this during a flow in early summer when everyone else is happy and working contently; they were completely unmanageable. I'm not sure what I should do. I'm not sure I can work them well enough to wait the 6 weeks it'll take to rotate the worker bees out, even if I could requeen them, since our summer flow is on and they will need supers. I'm not keen on euthanizing them either, but I certainly don't want them to get worse when we hit the dearth at the end of the month. What are my options?

Bakersdozen · « **Reply #1 on:** June 10, 2023, 11:08:40 am »

I had a hive like that about 10 years ago. They would chase me clear around to the front of the house and in the front door. They were the closest colony to a neighbor's fence line and I was so worried they would attack him when he was mowing or whatever. I called an acquaintance to ask about euthanizing them. He took them so that I wouldn't euthanize them. I learned later that they were too much for him and he gave them to a very experienced beekeeper. That beekeeper told me they were queenless by the time he got them. He divided the colony and put fresh queens in the boxes. His answer to the situation was to divide and conquer. This long story leads to that conclusion. Divide and conquer. Sounds like that is what you started to do by putting the snelgrove board in between the brood boxes.
Yes, you need to send that queen to Heaven. I always shudder at the thought of that gene pool swarming and landing some place where people or animals might suffer.
Is there any chance that you would be able to split the brood boxes up and give the top brood box a bottom board and lid? Even if they were setting side by side you would see one of those brood boxes calm down because they are queenless. Yes, the foragers will return to the queen right box. The box, with the queen, should be easier to manage hopefully.
Let's see what others say.

The15thMember · « **Reply #2 on:** June 10, 2023, 11:49:23 am »

Quote from: Bakersdozen on June 10, 2023, 11:08:40 am

I had a hive like that about 10 years ago. They would chase me clear around to the front of the house and in the front door. They were the closest colony to a neighbor's fence line and I was so worried they would attack him when he was mowing or whatever. I called an acquaintance to ask about euthanizing them. He took them so that I wouldn't euthanize them. I learned later that they were too much for him and he gave them to a very experienced beekeeper. That beekeeper told me they were queenless by the time he got them. He divided the colony and put fresh queens in the boxes. His answer to the situation was to divide and conquer. This long story leads to that conclusion. Divide and conquer. Sounds like that is what you started to do by putting the snelgrove board in between the brood boxes.
Yes, you need to send that queen to Heaven. I always shudder at the thought of that gene pool swarming and landing some place where people or animals might suffer.
Is there any chance that you would be able to split the brood boxes up and give the top brood box a bottom board and lid? Even if they were setting side by side you would see one of those brood boxes calm down because they are queenless. Yes, the foragers will return to the queen right box. The box, with the queen, should be easier to manage hopefully.
Let's see what others say.

Here's what I think I'm going to do. Since I have my Snelgrove board splitting the hive in half already, sometime next week I'll just take the top section and move it to another stand. Then I'll get rid of this queen and give both halves a frame of eggs from one of my nice queens. This hive wasn't any trouble when they were small, and they didn't even notice me when I went to get my stuff in the apiary last evening, so hopefully this way they'll be manageable until the new workers cycle in.

The15thMember · « **Reply #3 on:** June 10, 2023, 03:17:56 pm »

So I was back in the bee yard today finishing up some things that I didn't get around to yesterday for obvious reasons. The bees from this mean hive were following me everywhere in the yard. They would not leave me alone! I had about 20-30 bees from this hive in my face the entire time I was anywhere in the apiary, even when I was all the way down at the end of my line of hives with like 15 ft. between the last hive and theirs. Even when I entered the apiary from that side, in order to not have to pass by them, they still found me. It made it quite difficult to work the hives I needed to work.

I'm not okay with not being able to enter my apiary because of this one hive. I'm still going to try splitting them up and seeing what happens, but if I want or need to euthanize them, how would I go about that? I just want to be prepared with all my options.

The15thMember · « **Reply #4 on:** June 10, 2023, 08:52:26 pm »

So I'm kicking around an idea here. Like I mentioned, I've got my summer dearth about two weeks out, and I really need this hive to be manageable by that point, or the whole yard is going to become unmanageable from these mean ones following me everywhere. I discovered today that I'm out of bottom boards, so I can't split them in two (or more), and I'm honestly concerned about having several of them instead of just one if they don't calm down when they are smaller. What if I took the half of the hive with the queen and just euthanized it, leaving me with the queenless half, which I can give some eggs to?

Bakersdozen · « **Reply #5 on:** June 11, 2023, 10:28:04 am »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smBDFOWRqJU James Tew explains in this short video the how's and why's of killing a colony. He gets to the actual procedure at almost the 3 minute mark. There is no explanation about what to do with the frames afterwards. I would think you could rinse them with the garden hose and let dry.

Here is another video with a slightly different method. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38VG_9S5ISU This method doesn't get soapy water on the frames.

Jen · « **Reply #6 on:** June 11, 2023, 12:29:25 pm »

Hi 15th and Baker, going to go thru these two vids that Baker posted then get back to you. I have had to dispense of two hives in my days of beekeeping and I would like to tell you about them. I'll look at the vids this morning.

I'm back

I like both of these videos! The first time I had mean bees was way back when I had just joined this forum over 10 years ago-ish, and I had already been a beekeeping for 3 very difficult years because I had no one to teach me. The fellow that I bought a small nuc from was very hard to get a hold of. So this forum and Iddee helped me with my first mean bees.

Everything the videos say, was exactly my mean bee situation. I live in the city, and at the time had next door neighbors with a newborn and they liked hanging out on their patio. The minute someone would come out the back door, those bees were after us!

The hive was a 4 stack and full of bees.

After several suggestions from forum members about splitting or hauling the hive far far away, I felt neither was going to help my situation for various reasons. Iddee followed the thread and then said "Jaybird! you can dispense those bees if you want to. The whole mean hive will be dead in about an hour, just say the word and I'll tell ya how to do that."

"WORD"

He proceeded with "Batten down the hive the night before and close the entrance with a towel. Put some torn newspaper and powdered sulphur in the smoker, about 1 cups worth." I did that, and you have to be careful not to get a whiff of the burning sulphur. Then Iddee said "Light the smoker and put the nozzle under the towel up to the entrance. Then puff puff puff until you hear no more sound from the hive." I did that.

I don't remember how long it took, seems half an hour maybe. Then I noticed that the sulphur wasn't going into the hive anymore, so I backed off. Later that afternoon I slowly opened the lid and there were still some live bees in the upper boxes of which I used the shop vac and sucked them all up. Then proceeded to dismantle the hive. That's when I saw that the bottom deep box was full up with dead bees. No wonder the sulphur smoke could no longer get passed the entrance opening ... DOH!!!

The whole process worked great! However I like the video of the guy that has the wide pale of sudsy water, so then he shakes the bees into the water, the bees cannot fly up out of the suds, marvelous idea!

Bakersdozen · « **Reply #7 on:** June 12, 2023, 11:36:50 am »

Thanks Jen, is the powdered sulfur the same as you would use in the garden?

Both videos have merit. James Tew's method could be used if you are unable to tolerate the bee stings while you manipulate the frames and doing a shake out or people and animals were at risk while doing the kill.
The second method keeps your frames and wax from being exposed to water and soap. You have to be able to manipulate those frames though.

Jen · « **Reply #8 on:** June 12, 2023, 12:07:57 pm »

I don't remember what style the the sulpher was.

The15thMember · « **Reply #9 on:** June 12, 2023, 12:27:46 pm »

Thanks so much @Jen . The sulfur not a bad idea either. Was your comb still safe to reuse after using the sulphur? Was the honey safe to eat? Would the brood be safe to feed to the chickens? If I'm going to kill the bees, I just want to at least be able to use what I can from the hive.

Quote from: Bakersdozen on June 12, 2023, 11:36:50 am

Both videos have merit. James Tew's method could be used if you are unable to tolerate the bee stings while you manipulate the frames and doing a shake out or people and animals were at risk while doing the kill.
The second method keeps your frames and wax from being exposed to water and soap. You have to be able to manipulate those frames though.

This is the thing I'm currently in a toss-up about. I risk getting stung up like crap again by doing the tub of water method. If I soak the frames with either a bucket or a garden sprayer, that's going to be a huge mess to clean up afterwards and more of the resources from the hive will be wasted, but on the bright side, I can do that cleaning up without risk to myself.

The15thMember · « **Reply #10 on:** June 12, 2023, 01:38:51 pm »

I just got a great idea about this from Michael Bush. Why not just use a shop vac? People obviously use bee vacs to collect swarms because normal shop vacs kill bees, which is what I want to do here. I can still use a garden sprayer or something to keep the flying bees down. This is way easier, faster, and safer than doing the whole thing with water, and plus it preserves all the resources in the hive and the woodenware.

Jen · « **Reply #11 on:** June 12, 2023, 01:59:35 pm »

15th, I have more to say about the vac method or the water method, but have to go to town, so I'll get back to it a little later

But what I was going to say right now is ... if you vac ... make sure you have a plug for the end of the hose so the little meanies don't come back out of the hose. That plug could be a wad of newspaper.

If you reread my post with the sulphur I vaccumed the rest of the bees up from the top when the sulpher was done. It's a piece of cake.

Another thought ... make sure you plug the entrances, and do it right before night fall when all little meanies are home, then plug the hose ... and you could finish the next evening. Something like that ~

The15thMember · « **Reply #12 on:** June 12, 2023, 02:48:08 pm »

Quote from: Jen on June 12, 2023, 01:59:35 pm

15th, I have more to say about the vac method or the water method, but have to go to town, so I'll get back to it a little later

But what I was going to say right now is ... if you vac ... make sure you have a plug for the end of the hose so the little meanies don't come back out of the hose. That plug could be a wad of newspaper.

If you reread my post with the sulphur I vaccumed the rest of the bees up from the top when the sulpher was done. It's a piece of cake.

Another thought ... make sure you plug the entrances, and do it right before night fall when all little meanies are home, then plug the hose ... and you could finish the next evening. Something like that ~

Great tips, I'll be sure to do both of those things.

My mom and I were out in the garden picking some salads for lunch just now. We were about 25 ft. away from this hive and lower in elevation than it, and we had two bees after us, and my mom (who doesn't do well with bees) was stung on the neck. I'm almost wondering if they aren't expressing an Africanized phenotype, and/or this is a feral swarm I caught, because I've never seen anything like this. I'm going to try and deal with them tomorrow, so tonight I'm going to seal up the hive so they are all home. Anything else I should do this evening to prepare?

Bakersdozen · « **Reply #13 on:** June 13, 2023, 09:51:37 am »

I would expect the sound of the shop vac to really agitate them. But, they may attack the shop vac not you.

The15thMember · « **Reply #14 on:** June 13, 2023, 11:04:43 am »

Quote from: Bakersdozen on June 13, 2023, 09:51:37 am

I would expect the sound of the shop vac to really agitate them. But, they may attack the shop vac not you.

Our shop vac isn't terribly loud, and honestly, they are so agitated already, that if some are diverted to the shop vac itself, that would probably be helpful. I'm actually not going to be able to do this today, my sister is going to help me and she's not available, so we are going to do it tomorrow instead.

Jen · « **Reply #15 on:** June 13, 2023, 12:48:22 pm »

Another idea just occurred to me. Unless, you really need the wooden ware ... why not just keep the meanies locked up in that hive box and let them die out on their own? ... hmm, they only live 6 weeks anyway.

How hot does it get in the summer where you live?

The15thMember · « **Reply #16 on:** June 13, 2023, 01:12:31 pm »

Quote from: Jen on June 13, 2023, 12:48:22 pm

Another idea just occurred to me. Unless, you really need the wooden ware ... why not just keep the meanies locked up in that hive box and let them die out on their own? ... hmm, they only live 6 weeks anyway.

How hot does it get in the summer where you live?

Not super hot, and don't want the hive to get taken over by beetles or moths or anything as their numbers start to dwindle. Plus I am short on woodenware. Also just seems a little cruel.

I got another good idea from someone, which was to not actually open the hive. Just use the shop vac at the entrance, and suck up all the bees that come out to try and kill the shop vac. It might take a while, and it won't get rid of all the flying bees, but it'll be way safer than opening up the lid. It's the foragers and guard bees that are the mean ones after all, the nurse bees are no trouble. I think we're going to try that first.

Jen · « **Reply #17 on:** June 13, 2023, 04:10:49 pm »

What a novel idea!

why didn't I think of that

The15thMember · « **Reply #18 on:** June 14, 2023, 03:48:33 pm »

All right, it's done. It took long, several hours, but it went really well. Vacuuming at the entrance worked great and got the meanest bees out of the picture right away and before they even had time to alert the rest of the hive. Once bees stopped coming to the entrances to attack the vacuum, I cracked the lid and we vacuumed up everyone on the top bars. There weren't many foragers in the top, and there was also BIAS in there, so we looked for the queen, found her, and sent her on her merry way. The nurse bees up there weren't any hassle, so we set those boxes aside and then working frame by frame, we vacuumed up most of the bees in the bottom section of the hive. The bees down there were almost all foragers, and were pretty nasty, but the vacuum was quite efficient. The hive next door became a little bothered by the vacuum noise, so we did take a little break for about 15 minutes just so they could calm down, but other than that, everything was very safe and smooth and no one got stung. I left them with most of the capped brood that had been in the bottom of the hive, since there weren't any eggs or larvae of queen-rearing age down there (I removed any QCs they had made as we went). I made sure they had several frames of honey since they won't have many foragers for a while. The rest of the brood I put in the freezer. I'll uncap it and feed it to the chickens. We got 5 or 6 frames of capped honey out of the deal for ourselves, and the rest of the uncapped honey I'll spread around the yard for the other bees to cap. Thanks to everyone who helped out with this.

Bakersdozen · « **Reply #19 on:** June 14, 2023, 08:01:58 pm »

Quote from: The15thMember on June 13, 2023, 01:12:31 pm

I got another good idea from someone, which was to not actually open the hive. Just use the shop vac at the entrance, and suck up all the bees that come out to try and kill the shop vac. It might take a while, and it won't get rid of all the flying bees, but it'll be way safer than opening up the lid. It's the foragers and guard bees that are the mean ones after all, the nurse bees are no trouble. I think we're going to try that first.

I thought of something similar. Since you are using a shop vac, couldn't you have a little soapy water in the vac before you begin? Or finish the job off with a little soapy water? That seems humane to me. I think you are fortunate to have the shop vac as an option.