Feral Bees Hardiness Overwintering Diseases and Cell Size

[blueblood]

I decided to start a thread after reading Iddee's thread @ http://www.worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php/topic,925.0.html.  I thought the topic of Feral bees deserved it's own space.

So, my discussion starter surrounds my limited experience theory that feral bees are more hardy and less susceptible to disease.  I have had more success with my feral colonies versus my packaged bees.  I wish I could include nucs in my repertoire (had to ask my wife on the spelling of that one  .  Further, I believe my feral bees would be even stronger in the way of resisting disease and pestilence if I allowed them to build their own comb versus forcing them to build on small cell, etc.  The topic of cell size and viability has been discussed at great length among keepers.  My first top bar hive is doing well after this hard winter.  I mention it because it is feral and they have built their comb all by themselves.  On a side note, I will check their drone cells this spring and see if mites are an serious issue or not.  What say ye?   

[Perry]

I don't know how many "feral" bees we have left up here. Most of the stuff caught is usually what someone else just lost. 
I will say this though (IMHO), that locally raised queens are superior to almost anything else I have purchased. When making nucs I give folks an option, early nuc and imported queen, or later nuc with locally raised queen. Many want the early ones, but I have talked to a few of the folks that bought later ones and they seem to be having at least equal if not better success.
Good thread.

[robo]

First of all,  just a little clarification on nomenclature.  Feral means living in the wild but descended from domesticated individuals.   So once you but a swarm into a hive it is no longer "feral",  and as Perry inferred,  once a swarm leaves a hive it is "feral".

I draw a distinction between "feral" bees and what I refer to as "survivor" bees.   I consider survivor bees to be those that have been feral for a year or more (no treatment from beekeepers).   The only true way to get survivor bees is from doing a cut-out that you know has been there more than one year.   Or of course if you witness such a nest swarming.   Otherwise,  I consider all swarms to be non-survivor (chances are they came from another beekeeper or pollinator)  Pollinators are notorious for letting swarms go.  Farmers want their moneys worth and want to see packed hives.   Once these hives hit the crop they boom and quickly become overcrowded and swarm.  Pollinators don't have the time to chase swarms.   I know a guy in Georgia that chases swarms in canola fields and gets upwards to 400 swarms a year (then sells the hives back to pollinators )

I am a strong believer in survivor bees and have been keeping them for close to 10 years or so.   Long before it was popular to keep "mutts".   My experience has not lead me to believe cell sizes play a significant part.   When I first went the route of migrating my stock to survivor stock,  I focused on doing cut-outs of those year or older feral colonies.   I would put these cut outs onto Honey Super Cell as I "thought" 4.9 was part of the solution.   It got towards the end of the season and HSC was out of stock and not shipping,  so I had no choice but to put the last couple of cut-outs on fully drawn 5.1 comb.    These hives came through winter and performed equally well as the HSC hives,  and from that point forward I have not purchased and more HSC and use 5.1 foundation and still remain treatment-free.

A couple of other points mentioned.   I also agree with Perry on keep acclimatized bees.  But collecting local survivor bees you get that by default.   Long before 9/11 caused David Eyre to stop shipping queens to the states,  I had much better success with his northern queens than with any I could get from the south or California.   In fact it was the inability to get queens from David that drove me to dive into the survivor realm and start raising my own queens from survivor stock.

I am also a firm believe in the power of the nuc.   I can't explain why and can only speculate,  but it seems that an overwintered nuc will grow fast in the spring and end up out performing a full size hive that season.   Nucs bring tremendous advantages not only in spring build up,  but also brood breaks to help with varroa.  I believe these brood breaks are key to the feral bees defense against varroa.   Feral hives swarm at least once a year and get this brood break.  We as beekeepers try to prevent our hives from swarming and never get a break in brood.

That's my story......  your mileage may differ

[blueblood]

Wow, thanks Robo for the informational  rich reply.  I suppose you are right in reference to their definition once I put them in a box with man made frames and foundations.  And, so I wonder if I can still call my bees "feral" if I capture a swarm and put it in a tbh where they build their own comb?  I suppose most originated from domesticated bees.  But, the point is, their genetics has adjusted to living in this area over time which gives them a tremendous advantage over some packaged bees form the south in my opinion. 

[iddee]

I agree, blueblood, but I also believe it gives them a tremendous advantage over some packaged bees form the north in my opinion. 

[robo]

Wow, thanks Robo for the informational  rich reply.  I suppose you are right in reference to their definition once I put them in a box with man made frames and foundations.  And, so I wonder if I can still call my bees "feral" if I capture a swarm and put it in a tbh where they build their own comb?

You can call them anything you want,  but I would call them survivor mutts if you aren't treating them.  TBH is no different than Langstroth with foundationless. In fact I would argue TBHs are "less natural" than Langstroth, but that's another topic in itself

I suppose most originated from domesticated bees.

Since honeybees are non-native,  all come from domesticated lines at some point.

But, the point is, their genetics has adjusted to living in this area over time which gives them a tremendous advantage over some packaged bees form the south in my opinion.

I agree, blueblood, but I also believe it gives them a tremendous advantage over some packaged bees form the north in my opinion.

I don't think anyone would argue (unless they are trying to make a buck) that local acclimatized bees are best.

[blueblood]

Mutts is a good descriptor.  On a side note, my bees have so many shades of color and stripe sizes (<---would make a good study/thread on mutt bees). 

Iddee, I'm not completely sure any packages we have available for purchase are from here.  I think several nucs are though. 

[iddee]

Blue, I think there are many truck loads of northern bees shipped south, shook into packages which are sold, then split and sent back north for pollination.

 Robo, what I mean is caught bees that have been on their own for a few years are stronger and more reliable than bees that have been bombarded with chemicals, dumped into a large container and mixed from many hives, then queened with a mass produced queen, where ever it is done at or where the bees came from.

[robo]

Mutts is a good descriptor.  On a side note, my bees have so many shades of color and stripe sizes (<---would make a good study/thread on mutt bees). 

Nature values diversity, that is why the queen open mates with multiple drones.  Beekeepers seem to be hung up on pure strains.

Robo, what I mean is caught bees that have been on their own for a few years are stronger and more reliable than bees that have been bombarded with chemicals, dumped into a large container and mixed from many hives, then queened with a mass produced queen, where ever it is done at or where the bees came from.

No doubt,  but I would also think northern bees would not function as well as southern bees when moved to the south.   It is a too way street.

[LazyBkpr]

Good reading here. 
   If I don't see a noticeable difference in performance between the bees I have ordered for this year, over the bees I have caught locally in the past and hope to in the future, I may well be headed in the direction of sticking with the mutts...   err, I mean, Local Survivors!

[G3farms]

Mutts will always be the best in my book, for the simple reason of genetic diversity. Anything that is hybrid or pure blooded will have a weakness throughout the entire hive, with diversity it will only be a certain percentage.

Make sense?

[blueblood]

That does make sense G.  Reminds me of my father law constantly buying pure bread Malamutes because they don't seem to live longer than 5 years.   

[riverbee]

what robo said in his post #3, don't need to add.

the only relevant info from me, is the russian bees and queens i now get from iowa are great, i am not hung up on a pure strain, but they have done well for me, and yes i have mutts of, but these seem to hang in there year after year with little mite problems and good overwintering. i requeen as necessary.  caught a swarm late last season, never expected them to make it, they are doing well.  not sure who's bees these were, might have been my own....   2 other guys here have let their hives go, so hard to say.  total mutts i think with a big fat queen that was similiar in color of a cordovan. 

i had a commercial friend/mentor that purchased the russian queens and reared his own.  our losses were greatly reduced,  he fell very sick and so i had to resort to other ways to obtain bees and queens.  in general, when i stopped getting southern bees and southern queens, my losses were greatly reduced.  just saying. lots of variables on this.

[Bsweet]

I prefer local mutts over package bees and prefer local queens to mailed /shipped . I feel the local mutts have a leg up on shipped bees because
1. Swarms are from a healthy well populated hive
2. Local bees are climatized to your location

As Robo said a break in the brood cycle is good for v mite control, I stopped making splits by the box and have gone to NUCing the hive up to 3 times a year. By that I meen I take the queen and put her into a 5 frame NUC and shake 3 or 4 frames of bees into it. The parent hive has about 3 weeks with no brood to care for and they can really pack in stores. The NUC gets a frash start and can be a 2 box production hive by year end. Jim

[Perry]

I pretty much like Bsweet's approach. I don't normally do true "splits" anymore, instead make up nucs.

[lazy shooter]

I pretty much like Bsweet's approach. I don't normally do true "splits" anymore, instead make up nucs.

Perry, do you let the old hive make their own queen?  Do you place any brood in the nuc?

[Bsweet]

Can't speak for Perry but I let the hive make a queen. If you place brood in the NUC then there is no break in the brood cycle in it, but if your just trying to increase the number of hives and not worried about mites then brood is ok. Jim

[Perry]

I guess it really depends on when and why. When I'm making nucs for sale, I almost always add a queen (offshore or local, depending on availability).
If I am going through a yard and find swarm preps in a hive, the queen and 4 frames go into 1 nuc, and any other good frames with nice cells go into 2 frame nucs. I have taken to keeping a deep, divided in to 4 - 2 frame sections in most of my yards for just this reason (seems like I'm a day late more often than I'd like to admit).
The parent colony is then allowed to re-queen itself (like Jim). Everything gets a bit of a brood break except the nuc with the queen.

[blueblood]

I guess it really depends on when and why. When I'm making nucs for sale, I almost always add a queen (offshore or local, depending on availability).
If I am going through a yard and find swarm preps in a hive, the queen and 4 frames go into 1 nuc, and any other good frames with nice cells go into 2 frame nucs. I have taken to keeping a deep, divided in to 4 - 2 frame sections in most of my yards for just this reason (seems like I'm a day late more often than I'd like to admit).
The parent colony is then allowed to re-queen itself (like Jim). Everything gets a bit of a brood break except the nuc with the queen.

This would make a good thread.  Not just about nucs but related to splits to nucs.

[lazy shooter]

Perry:

What are the four frames?  Are they brood and honey frames or, are they just honey frames?  Just any four frames with bees?