Worldwide Beekeeping
Beekeeping => General Beekeeping => Topic started by: Woody Roberts on February 28, 2014, 11:25:37 pm
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Since I'm always interested in growing and selling some bees this doesn't apply to me. In talking with people about bees I find a good many that don't want to get in the bee business. They just want to have a hive for their own honey. When I say you really need two their ok with that. When I say you need at least one nuc box most say their not interested in splitting or raising queens they just want some bees.
While possible I think it would be difficult to keep bees for a long period of time without keeping a nuc on the side for emergencys. I guess you could buy a queen if you caught it in time but if they weren't comfortable starting a nuc I doubt they'd recognize an emergency until its too late.
You can rob brood from these and keep them in a nuc all summer and combine them in the fall. You can let them fill a single deep, overwinter them and sell them in the spring assuming your two hives survived. Then as soon as possible start another.
I use Iddees method to prevent swarms. When the blackberries bloom ( I know y'all are tired of hearing about blackberries ) I pull any queen that's over a year old and the frame she's on plus a frame of capped brood and a frame of food. Put these in a nuc until the brood hatches or until they fill the box which don't usually take long. She thinks she's already swarmed and the parent hive won't usually swarm with a new queen assuming they have room etc.
I personally try to have a nuc on hand at any time of the year I can have one.
I've gotten a little off topic which is can you keep one or two hives indefinitely without always trying to plan for the worst?
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Thank you Woody, nicely put. I myself are one of the ones who doesn't want more than two hives.
I'm not putting a guarantee on that tho, due to the fact that I now have a large colony, two deeps that made it thru the winter. And I have much more info under my belt. But for now, two is very doable
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You talk about being . to do so is to have the resources to assist or correct problems or issues as they arise. In today's world of beekeeping having nucs and over wintering them has become part of being sustainable. Nucs to cover overwintering losses. Puling nucs as a means of swarm control does 2 things, first it is a good management technique to prevent swarming, and provides a back up for if the hive swarmed the fate of the hive depends on the mating of the virgin Queen that is left in the hive. Having a nuc gives you the resources to bolster a colony with a failed queen.
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Originally, in my beekeeping adventure, I was one of those that only wanted a hive or two in the back yard. The second year, I realized I was going to have to do a split or else become a very bad neighbor. A swarm landing near a neighbor's house might scare them and start a series of phone calls to me or to the city. We don't want the city I live in receiving complaints because they are fairly lenient regarding beekeepers.
To me, it looks like the future of beekeeping is going to be in the hands of hobbyist and small scale beekeepers. Woody, your theory about keeping nucs around and available is a good one. Possibly we should be teaching that concept to beginners, especially if they are thinking of a 1-2 hive backyard garden hobby. Included in the usual first year literature about how to have a successful first year a caveat about how a successful spring might include doing a split and why it is advantageous. We should be encouraging beginners to think ahead.
Woody, now you have me thinking about our upcoming Beginners Beekeeping Class... 8)
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I like pulling the old queen out as described and letting the original hive attempt to requeen itself. This provides some brood interruption for varroa control in the original hive and I have a source of the original queen's genetics to try again if the first requeening does not work. Just a couple of extra potential bonuses from the same action.
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I am now officially and extremely confused. Is there a thread where this process is detailed step by step? This makes no sense to me, but that's probably because I'm still pretty new. So you are saying pull the queen frame and put it in a nuc for each hive? If you do that, then to me you are creating more of a management issue. What do you do with the nuc? Create another hive when it gets too big? It will eventually swarm if you do nothing right?
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I'm not sure anyone is saying pull one per hive. I do it when I want a nuc (or more) for insurance purposes or to get more hives with a particular genetics. I can always keep the nuc size small during the brood rearing season by removing brood and putting it in the original hive or using it to boost a weaker hive elsewhere. I think the main point of the nuc aspect of the thread is that to keep 2 hives going, it doesn't hurt to keep a nuc for extra insurance. If there is a queen disaster or failure in 1 of the 2 hives, the nuc is there to keep it going.
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Okay, I can understand that. I have a particular hive that has strong, calm genetics and I want to keep that going, so I was planning on doing a split. But, maybe just making a nuc with her would be the way to go.
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I know what I am doing is I am going to definitely make at least 2 Nucs from my 6 Hives. That way if I lose any hives that Nuc will be ready to replace it.
What I think the point is here is if you have 2 Hives and want Substainability ( I can't Spell lol!) Making a Nuc is a good idea.
That way if one of your hives dies for whatever reason any time of the year you have the Nuc as a backup to replace that hive.
I believe and if I an wrong someone tell me but you can make 2 levels on the Nuke and try to overwinter them if you're 2 hives make it all year.
You could also combine the Nuc with the weaker of your 2 hives right before winter then start the Nuc again next year.
To start a Nuc you can take a Strong Hive and in the Nuc Box put a frame of eggs or 2, frame of Honey and Pollen. As long as you have eggs laid by the Queen they will make their own Queen provided they have Honey and Pollen in the Nuc. Also don't remove the worker bees from the frames you pull to put in the Nuc...they are needed to attend to the new Queen! Just make sure you don't put the queen in the nuc...BUT if you do that's ok too the hive you took the frames from should make a new Queen if youby chance move the queen to the Nuc...
Wow did that all make sense? :P
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Don, a nuc is too small to "reliably" make a new queen and build up. You need to move the queen to the nuc and let the strong hive build the new queen. Your success rate will be many times greater with that method.
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Actually thats how I do it, and I am glad to hear others do the same, with a couple of exceptions....
I do a split WITH the old queen, but then I put a queen IN the old / production hive. As mentioned they feel they have swarmed, and so long as population is managed they will not be likely to actually swarm.
Getting older bees to accept a new queen is not as easy as getting younger nurse bees to accept a queen, so a little more care and caution is in order when putting the new queen into the production hive.
This is why most people, and publications talk of adding the new queen to the split rather than the old hive.
I like the idea of letting them raise their own queen, but rather than letting them raise their own queen, why not notch a cell or two on two different frames (if you use that smelly plastic foundation) and convince them to raise queens for however many hives you have, OR, do cell punch (If you use real wax) and drop the bars into this hive and let them make queens that way? Then you get new queens for how ever many hives you have. Put the old queen in a nuc, drop the cells into the hives and wait to see if the new queens mate and begin laying. If they get eaten on their mating flight you can reunite the original queen.
Simplest way to keep bees ever.
We have farmers who... HAVE... bees, that do NOT manage them beyond tossing a super on in the spring and pulling it off in fall. When they die they make some calls and toss more bees in there. Sometimes they get honey, sometimes they don't.
Living in an urban environment puts more responsibility on the beekeeper because they have to be concerned about neighbors. SO, what to do to prevent one of your swarms from hanging off the neighbors front porch?
Keep a young queen in your hive. Requeen EVERY year. Younger queens are better at preventing swarming tendencies.
Remove brood frames. When your queen has five or six frames filled with brood pull a couple of them, replace with either drawn comb or an empty frame. This will help keep the brood nest open so the queen has plenty of room to lay, and it will reduce the number of bees emerging.
I have pulled 4 frames from hives that have had 7 frames packed solid with brood. Slide the brood nest together and place the new frames to the outer edges of the brood nest.
What do do with the brood you just took out?
You have a couple of choices. Make more hives, strengthen other hives, or destroy the brood by Decapping or freezing.
DONT, use your hot knife to decap the brood frame. If you do you will spend a lot of time with a brillo pad cleaning it.
IF NO other hives/nuc's are needed, or wanted. Use a filet knife and shave the capping off those frames. Cut them down well, and put them back in the hive. The bees will immediately go to work cleaning that mess up. As they clean it up and polish the cells for re use, the queen will lay in them.
Freezing works too, but in my opinion is more work for the bees. they have to open all the cells to drag the remains away, plus it means putting that frame in the freezer over night. Much easier to decap and drop the frame back in.
I am not sure why it works so well to do this, perhaps, because it suddenly gives the bees SO MUCH to do that they don't feel useless anymore?
It will have to be done twice, MAYBE three times during the prime months depending on how prolific the queen is.
Thankfully I want more bees. SO making the nucs is of prime importance. With ten Nuc;'s it is really easy to rapidly build up a newly started hive. Package, or hived Nuc from that spring with the over abundance of brood from those nuc's and other hives turns them into booming monster production hives, usually in time to take advantage of the spring flow.
If hive has good brood pattern and a decent number of bees, I have never had a problem with not enough bees to cover a frame of brood. If the hive is thought to be too weak to cover the brood, I give the frames a LIGHT shake to dislodge a FEW bees, and transfer the rest of them directly into the weak hive. Adding TWO frames like this and giving the frames your about to drop in a mist of syrup seems to make them excited and happy rather than put up a loud hum of disapproval.
Drop in a frame of BROOD with no bees on it, the bees dont get excited. Drop in a frame with BEES still on it you will hear the level of the HUM increase dramatically, the mist of syrup turns them to licking it off the newcomers and they are accepted much easier.
NOW, this is what I do. so don't take offense if you do it differently, instead, please post how you do it so I can learn too!
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Don, a nuc is too small to "reliably" make a new queen and build up. You need to move the queen to the nuc and let the strong hive build the new queen. Your success rate will be many times greater with that method.
That's good to know as I haven't made a Nuc yet that is this years task along with learning Queen Grafting... 8)
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Seriously Lazy! You should write the book of all books on beekeeping. You are so good at teaching! OR! Even better how about your own beekeeping show on the Discover channel. "How To Keep Bees ~ The Lazy Way" :D
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I do have a propensity for writing walls of text....
I am going to do something I don't like to do, because it often times makes me look like a fool.. but, it does make what I learn stick in my brain longer...
I'm going to disagree with Iddee on using a Nuc to make a queen.. mostly, because thats how I do it..
If making a lot of queen cells, there are not enough bees to produce the royal jelly and tend the new queens, but making six, eight, or even ten queens in a nuc is entirely possible if the nuc is made up of nurse bees and frames of emerging brood for that purpose, is fed, and has pollen and nectar in it.
Taking a nuc that has half the population out foraging... That may not work very well, however... if needing ONLY the queen for that nuc, with only a couple of cells I don't see why it couldn't be done? Time? The die off would weaken it too much before the new queen was laying?
A PDF by Nick Withers. Go to Method C Raising one queen in a Nucleus.
http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/uploads/Simple%20queen%20rearing.pdf
Not posting that to say he is right or even that his method will work, its more to feel less ALONE in my thinking :P
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Maybe you disagree with me because you only read half what I say. :P
You also don't seem to know the difference in a queen and a queen cell. :P :P
""Don, a nuc is too small to "reliably" make a new queen and build up.""
I would really like to see you make 6, 8, or even 10 queens in a nuc and have them build that nuc into a hive and still have all the queens laying. :P :P :P
I didn't say anything about raising queen cells in a nuc.
PS. Now we will see how well you take harassment. :laugh:
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Has anyone heard about doing a split and setting the Nuc right next to the hive at a 45 degree angle?
I heard about this at our Michigan Beekeepers 2013 Fall Conference where the featured speaker was Jane Burgess, recently retired CEO from Walter T. Kelly (a national bee supply and catalog company).
She had a presentation that included it and said if you do that the Hive you made the split from actually enters the Nuc and helps it along. Therefore a Nuc would be strong enough to make and substain their own queen! :laugh:
If anyone knows any info online on how to do this I'd like to read it...
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You can read where two frames of bees the right age will build you a queen. It's true, they will, she ain't worth a dime.
The first couple years I started several two and three frame nucs. All of these raised a queen that got mated and laid for a month or three. None of these hives built up and none saw fall. They just dwindled away to nothing.
I have one six frame nuc that I've raised several queens in. Most if not all have been good ones. Four frames with lots of bees plus a few extras shook in will usually build a satisfactory queen. Five frames is better but no nuc can build queens like a strong hive can.
I'm pretty much foundationless and I have a ten frame deep divided into four two frame mating nucs. A strong hive will usually build several queen cells. Big fat ones. Using the queen generator from The Bee Yard I'll cut some of these cells out and move them into the mating nuc.
Queens only need lots of bees until their capped after that they just need to be kept at temp. This method doesn't tie up as many bees while your waiting for them to make it back from their mating flights as some won't. The two frames that don't get a laying queen will go in a nuc with the two who do.
I've only bought one queen in my life and I wasn't impressed. She was small and even though she had enough bees she refused to build up until they got weak enough the hive beetles took em. She acted just like my two frame queens.
I suspect there's a lot of queens that are sold that will be superseded within a couple months. There are different reasons I'm sure but I suspect some breeders just try to build enough queens to meet demand.
I personally consider the feed they get in the larva stage to be as important as genetics.
I could be wrong here, I often am. Woody
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reading half of what you say? Me? Never!! , maybe... :-X
I would really like to see you make 6, 8, or even 10 queens in a nuc and have them build that nuc into a hive and still have all the queens laying. :P :P :P
In the same Nuc? >:(
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"In the same Nuc?"
That's what we were talking about. Removing a nuc and letting the hive raise a queen and end up with 2 hives.
This is what you wrote.....
" but making six, eight, or even ten queens in a nuc is entirely possible"
You did not say queen cells.
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I have two queens that are going into their fourth year raised in Nuc's. They still have the remnants of white paint on them. They will be replaced this year by two of the VSH queens I have ordered.
I am arguing that a nuc can raise VERY good queens. I am not arguing that they can raise duds if split and managed incorrectly.
probably missing the point and playing whos on second again here..
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Someone mentioned doing this to all your hives. I don't. My favorite queens are the ones born after the summer solstice. June 21 I'll start my growing. The flow is about over and I have lots of bees. These fill a ten frame deep and overwinter here just fine. They need a little feed of course since they missed the spring flow.
I've personally never had a swarm from a queen born in the late summer the first year. I'm sure it could happen. Especially if you don't give them enough room. You have to stay on top of em, these young overwintered queens are impressive.
It's the following year that I pull them if they haven't been superseded. Some will be superseded even though their laying like gangbusters. I assume the bees have their reasons and I don't argue with them.
A whole lot of what I do is just follow my gut. It's often wrong but every time I lose/kill a hive I try to learn something from it.
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every time I lose/kill a hive I try to learn something from it.
cant argue with that! Hope they make enough bees for me to get it all figured out!!!!
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Lazy
I've raised some good queens in nucs. But they had to be strong nucs.
Here's the problem I've always had with pulling the queen. Sometimes things go wrong. They don't make it back from their mating flights etc.
When this happens unless your really on top of things this hive won't make surplus honey this year. Whereas if you pull a nuc from a strong hive, or as I usually do from 3 to 5 hives they won't miss a beat
If you have five strong hives you could pull a frame from each about every week and it wouldent hurt them much. You could start a nuc every week and combine the few that don't make it back.
Keeping a gap in the brood nest really helps with swarming also.
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hehe, I couldn't agree more!
http://outyard.weebly.com/queens.html
STRONG nuc's, and setting the queen aside in case there are problems with the new queen! :yes:
Maintaining NUC's means you will need to pull frames of brood from those nuc's, and what better place to put them? In the newly started hives. Using that brood from nuc's, and even production hives that you are trying to keep from swarming will make those new hives INTO production hives in their first year. Of course, depending on the amount of hives and nuc's being maintained....
NOT as easy with two hives, but with two hives and two Nuc's ? I have not thought much about it on that scale. With two hives I may be more inclined to order a package if one of them died.. but.. The vid that started me on the original idea of a sustainable apiary, and why I will be overwintering nucs next winter instead of selling them..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nznzpiWEI8A
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Lazy- Been watching this vid a little at a time, in between chores. Really like this speaker.
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All good info to listen to then do what I feel is best after listening :laugh:
Thanks though another way you learn is to sit back and watch the fighting....errr...I mean listen LMAO 8)
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a Don snip...
Has anyone heard about doing a split and setting the Nuc right next to the hive at a 45 degree angle?
tecumseh...
I am not absolutely certain of what a person might be trying to do here but do your really think the angle mentioned here is important????
just between me and you.... several years ago I met the person mentioned in your opening thread and I really got the impression that I have hive tools that have spent more time in a bee yard than the person mentioned.
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All good info to listen to then do what I feel is best after listening :laugh:
Thanks though another way you learn is to sit back and watch the fighting....errr...I mean listen LMAO 8)
But isn't that the entire point?
If I argue something, and am shown the error of my ways it generally leads to a modification of how I do it. So finding that you have been a dope is painful to the ego, but beneficial to the bees.
So.. Pirate time!
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs1.postimg.cc%2Fos01fhhln%2FThe_Captain_Black.jpg&hash=8c1bb674584f7e69478a226f49fc63ddf2364c10) (http://postimg.cc/image/os01fhhln/)
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Michael palmer is moving his bees nucs when they are formed, and he is also adding a queen. Does a nuc have to be moved when it is formed?
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I don't move mine. I let the foragers return to the original hive and I feed the nuc. With two or three frames of capped brood covered with nurse bees, there will be new foragers orienting within a day or two.
If you want to keep your foragers, change the orientation of the entrance, and block it with something. A piece of wood leaned across the entrance etc.. just something to stop the bees from ZOOMING off when the leave. Make then notice something has changed so they re orient.
This is on my list of things to video this spring.
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I don't necessarily move mine either. If there is a flow on I feed if not I don't feed. I do make sure the frames I put in have a good honey band and I may add another frame of honey. I tend to add a frame of emerging brood. This does not help build a queen but the frame they came out of will help her and this will be her work force when she needs one.
The reason I don't feed. All of the nucs I had required a board man feeder. These are fine if there's a flow on. They are not fine in a dearth. I built some nucs this year that will have a jar feeder in the top near the back.
As I've said I build most of my nucs after the spring flow so I have to be careful about feeding. While I believe thin syrup would be beneficial. I've found about all most home raised queens need is a chance and enough bees to cover their brood. Of course they have to have enough food but it seems they know their behind and they intend to catch up.
Can you tell I love young queens.
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Woody ""If there is a flow on I feed if not I don't feed.""
Um, scratching head. K, help me out here, this is a new subject for me :) I think I need a bigger picture
If there is a flo on...? then you feed them, so they can put the nectar away for later stores?
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Jen
When I start a nuc whether I put the queen in or let them raise their own the field bees will return to the old hive. This is why I put in a frame of emerging brood. They will not have a field force when first started.
If there's a flow on bees are not prone to rob so I can get away with feeding. If you feed these small hives with a boardman feeder during a dearth they are likely to get robbed out.
If there's not a flow on I usually put in plenty of open and capped food and close the entrance down to about two or three bees. I've never had a problem with this setup.
Once the queen is laying the chances of getting robbed go down for some reason. But during the first few weeks it's a real risk.
Hope this helps, I'm not very good at saying what I'm thinking. Woody
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Good description, woody. Very thorough.
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An entrance feeder will be too close to the entrance itself, even if reduced you still only have a couple of inches from feeder to the reduced entrance.
On a full size hive you will have a larger distance. Ten inches or so from the feeder to the opposite side where the reduced entrance should be, making it harder for robbers to get to it. A board leaned across the entrance, a screen etc to keep the would be robbers from zipping in past the guard bees will also help. But the nuc is just too small.
I have nuc's with holes in the top, but I really don't like to do that.. Seems like anything shy of siliconing something over the hole still leaks.
I have built some feeders.. entrance style.. so that you can put a nuc bottom board on top the nuc and slide the feeder in it, then block the rest of the top entrance. That way you can put them on the Rear of the nuc at the top... but I have not tried them to see how they work yet. If they work well, I will post about them, but not until I see what kinds of problems they cause.
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(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs10.postimg.cc%2Fii6pephj9%2FDSCF0221.jpg&hash=daf923fbcb195dce3dba43d14c03e17f7e045111) (http://postimg.cc/image/ii6pephj9/)
You can see in the pic above how close the feeder is to the reduced entrance on a nuc, and how far away it is below on a standard hive.
The biggest problem with a regular boardman is that if it leaks syrup, it will leak INTO the hive, and if your hive is tilted forward, it will build up in the feeder, kill bees, and eventually run along the reducer until it can find a way out, which is usually the entrance. There will be bees from Hawaii trying to get that syrup.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs9.postimg.cc%2F77780knez%2FDSCF0067.jpg&hash=3a0d693527b1e31965927b7012d74613bd67feea) (http://postimg.cc/image/77780knez/)
At the very least, if you MUST use an entrance feeder, drill a hole in the back of it. A small hole that will allow the syrup to drip there instead of running into your hive, making you bees sticky, and possibly killing them. Not to mention making the possibility of robbing even greater. The dripping hole in the back will still draw bees, but it will not draw them directly to the entrance, and it will also quickly alert you that there is a problem.
(https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs8.postimg.cc%2Fyk6sxs33l%2FDSCF0209.jpg&hash=ffb317adaddbd6d07ccf90de623a7d87a097be94) (http://postimg.cc/image/yk6sxs33l/)
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Brilliant! Send out some prototypes and lets test them out !!
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Lazy
My entrance feeders are set up just like yours with one exception. Their made out of folded sheet metal and they lean out. Any leaks drip out the front.
I'll probably stick with my method. Any hive strong enough to make a nuc from can also spare a frame of honey/pollen.
In C.C. millers book, 50 years among the bees. He recommends feeding only your strong hives and steal the filled frames for the weak ones. This really cuts down on the robbing.
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Woody;
There is NO DOUBT that the honey frames are far superior. In spring I often do not have honey frames to spare when I do early splits, so I use top feeders. The entrance feeder is the last resort when I have used up the other resources, like extra boxes to cover the jars on the top feeders.
When we roll into late summer, and have the pollen and nectar begin to dry up.. I really don't want to start feeding them back honey. I would much prefer to save it for winter prep, so at that time they will also be fed. If November rolls around and they have not been able to store enough honey, I put it back on as I wrap. The winter we just had//are still having has seen them go through everything I had and they are into the sugar. So I can easily foresee using every available method I have to keep them alive and get them building up.
Less honey will be extracted this year. If its a good year and they make lots of reserves, I can always extract late fall instead of late summer.
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Woody- ""My entrance feeders are set up just like yours with one exception. Their made out of folded sheet metal and they lean out. Any leaks drip out the front.""
The problem I foresee of any dripping is ants. Ants make me nuts
I will probably feed thru the inner cover. My lid doesn't have a feeding hole.
Now that I think about it, should I make a feeding hole in the lid?
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You have a hole in your inner cover. Put your jar or jars over that, put a box over it to protect it from the sun and your SET!! ;D
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Salute! I will do that ;D