Author Topic: Russian bee's (Read 6895 times)

Newbee · « **on:** February 25, 2015, 01:12:52 pm »

Does anyone have any experience raising Russian bee's? I've read a few articles that seem like they have good qualities vs. Italian, especially for my cold, northern climate.

I also found an apiary that sells them near family that I visit (so could potentially obtain a Nuc from there).

http://walterswholesomegoods.com/bees-for-sale/

I think I would prefer to go w/ fully genetic russian bee's vs. hybridized, should I choose that route (aka I don't want to get something local and re-queen it w/ a russian producing hybrids).

But hey, I'm a newbie, so… educate away!

Thanks.

- K

tbonekel · « **Reply #1 on:** February 25, 2015, 01:29:32 pm »

What "qualities" are you looking for? Just overall? Would hybrid mean the same as "mutt" bees? I think that's all I have. I purchased one Italian queen about a year ago, but other than that I don't know what I have and don't have any experience with the Russian breed.

Newbee · « **Reply #2 on:** February 25, 2015, 01:59:00 pm »

Well for starters the cold-hardiness is especially attractive…. and also, some of the detrimental characteristics listed I see as a benefit? I'm not a commercial beekeepers, just considering this as a hobby, so if they swarm, no biggie, so long as I still have a queen, right? And really, if they do swarm due to crowding, it's my fault, no?

The mite and other pest resistance due to cleanliness also seems to be very useful. I'm a bit of a natural-kinda guy, and am concerned about all the stuff I'm reading about chemical treatments (some argue they're counter-productive, the cure is causing the disease, so to speak), and the issue w/ chemical build-up in foundation wax really scares me? I'm hoping to be able to not-use any chemical treatments at all, if I can (I know, lofty goal, but…) It seems that w/ some good management practices and regular inspections for over-crowding, they might be 'better' bee's than the usual available here in the States.

Seems most of the 'problems' are created by the apiarist trying to rear them as if they were Italian/Carolina bee's, instead of treating them as if they are their own flavor? I wouldn't treat me Golden-Doodle the same way I did my Beagle. Shrug. I dunno, but they seem appealing to me.
Thanks!

- K

Papakeith · « **Reply #3 on:** February 25, 2015, 02:02:40 pm »

I picked up three russian queens from Warm Colors Apiary last Summer. All three seem to be surviving the winter just fine. These are supposed to be Hygienic stock. We will see this spring.

they are also supposed to be fairly gentile but swarm prone.

Bakersdozen · « **Reply #4 on:** February 25, 2015, 02:23:12 pm »

Quote from: Newbee on February 25, 2015, 01:59:00 pm

so if they swarm, no biggie, so long as I still have a queen, right?

If they swarm, there goes your work force and there goes your honey crop. A beekeeper works to control the colony. A bee haver lets what happens, happens. You may also lose an excellent queen with the swarm and gain a poorly bred queen.

Newbee · « **Reply #5 on:** February 25, 2015, 02:37:25 pm »

Quote from: Bakersdozen on February 25, 2015, 02:23:12 pm

If they swarm, there goes your work force and there goes your honey crop. A beekeeper works to control the colony. A bee haver lets what happens, happens. You may also lose an excellent queen with the swarm and gain a poorly bred queen.

Understood, but as I was saying, I'm not a commercial farmer, just a hobbiest. Losing my honey-crop would be a bigger problem for the remaining bee's than me. I'll just go back to buying it @ the market. Losing a healthy-queen I agree could be an issue, but the swarming is most likely to happen because I'm not providing the best home for the bee's, so I expect those types of setbacks regardless of which species I choose to start with. From what I've read-up on the russian's, it's often b/c the apiarist didn't anticipate how quickly the size of the hive can swell (upwards of 2500 hatching a day during peak pollen-flow, OMG!!!) By having sufficient broods and supers, and keeping a close eye on things, I'm hoping to avoid the over-crowding situation that causes many swarms to form.
That being said, as the russian bee's are known to constantly keep queen-cell's at the ready, I shouldn't be left w/ a queenless-hive if that does happen. Just at risk of a poorly-bred replacement.

Thanks for the thoughts and discussion!

- K

iddee · « **Reply #6 on:** February 25, 2015, 02:52:55 pm »

"" but the swarming is most likely to happen because I'm not providing the best home for the bee's,""

No, it's just the opposite. Swarming is normally by a large, healthy hive. A weak, unhealthy hive will not swarm. Maybe abscond, but not swarm.

Swarming is the natural way bees multiply their colony numbers. It's no different than young humans getting married and having kids. Setting them up for swarming is what you don't want to do.

IE: Letting them get too crowded. Filling the hive cavity to where there's no room for expansion. Letting the matriarch age past her best production years, etc.

So the better the home, the more chance of a swarm, if and when the conditions are right.

tedh · « **Reply #7 on:** February 25, 2015, 03:08:11 pm »

Hi Everybody,and welcome to the forum Newbee! I'm still waiting to see if my hive makes it through this winter (I'm a first year guy!) so please take this with a grain of salt.

I think it's a great idea. Well, maybe not a GREAT idea but an idea. This past summer there were a couple of times when I was unsure of what to do. I asked on the forum and got rather conflicting views. I think that's probably right and proper. We all have our ways of keeping bees. The point is I was kinda hanging around wringing my hands for a while. I believe the term is "analysis paralysis"? Research your options and give it a whack. It sounds as if this is what you'd like to do. What the heck? Right?

I will say that we did look at getting Russians to expand this coming spring. We read in a couple of different places that Russians would be better suited to more experienced keeps. Apparently there are just enough differences that a newer keep could have problems, with the way they build up, how the queen will slow down in a dearth , these are just the differences that stuck in my mind. I'd guess there are more. You, being new, and learning to keep bees beginning with Russians, might not have those differences to contend with. If Russians are what you know, would you be aware of those differences? But then asking others for advice might become problematic. I believe riverbee keeps Russians and I'm hoping she'll jump in here with better and first hand experiences.

Personally, I like the idea of locally raised mutts. They are more apt to be acclimated to our particular climate. That being said, if your hive did swarm, the queen you would end up with would probably mate with at least some, local feral drones. Anyway, again, WELCOME, and good luck! Ted

Newbee · « **Reply #8 on:** February 25, 2015, 03:30:47 pm »

Quote from: tedh on February 25, 2015, 03:08:11 pm

You, being new, and learning to keep bees beginning with Russians, might not have those differences to contend with. If Russians are what you know, would you be aware of those differences?

Thanks Ted, that was kinda my thinking, too. I don't have any previous experience to compare to. And while I understand most of the reading/writing available is geared towards other species, I still view all of this as having to assimilate and interpret other's knowledge into my own understanding. It might limit who/what advice I can get, but frankly I always take it w/ a grain of salt anyhow. What's worked for one person in one circumstance may not work for me in mine. Learned that the hard way chasing other people in the Saltwater Aquarium hobby (15+ years and counting…) I tried desperately to emulate what other people did and it didn't work for me. I struck my own groove, and never looked back.

Thanks again.

- K

Ray · « **Reply #9 on:** February 25, 2015, 04:32:51 pm »

Unless your talking BREEDER queens from a very honest breeder, you won't get pure Russians. The people you buy Russian hybrid queens from are using (hopefully) 100% Russian queens.
IMO: there is no such thing as a 100% of ANY strain of honey bee in the North American Continent.
Alright who wants to argue semantics?

Perry · « **Reply #10 on:** February 25, 2015, 05:24:11 pm »

Riverbee has quite a bit of knowledge on Russian bees, I'm sure she'll chip in when she sees this.

barry42001 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 25, 2015, 06:25:16 pm »

I have Russian Hybrids, I am in Florida, they are doing well enough in the heat, and our winters aren't worth talking about ( think had 2 nights below the freezing temp ) I am quite satisfied with them, atleast somewhat resistant to varroa, they have them not in high numbers. Queen already working in both brood chambers.

Ray4852 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 25, 2015, 06:43:30 pm »

I will put my carniolan mutts up against any Russian. My bees know how to survive our cold winters in western NY. My bees are very conservative and overwinter with tiny clusters. If you insist you have to have Russians, there’s a queen breeder in western NY located around little valley NY. I think you have to get on a waiting list if you want his queens.

http://www.coldcountryqueens.com/

riverbee · « **Reply #13 on:** February 25, 2015, 06:49:04 pm »

hi newbee,
i keep russian bees, and mutts of, except for local swarms, and those might be mine as well...........

i have for well over 12 years now. when i first started with the russkies, i knew a commercial beekeeper that purchased breeder queens when russian stock first became available in the u.s.a. he brought me daughter queens, and nucs. i was getting disheartened with overwintering of other stocks and also mites. that was all she wrote, even though they could be pretty snarky then, i haven't kept anything else since and haven't looked back. now i purchase the russian bees and queens through an rhba member in iowa.

they have their quirks, and you must learn them.........or they will teach you quickly.............

i have a number of posts i am sure on this forum, about russian bees, in the search box at the top, type in 'russian' and you will find the posts.

also, check this thread out:
Races & Characteristics of Honey Bees

you will find two pdf files i uploaded on russians in that 1st post.
and just because you are a jeep head or drive a jeep that tells you what freezing temp it is i will upload one of the files here..........

any questions newbee fire away, i can probably answer them.

ray, bob brachman of cold country queens is an rhba member, and a another good choice to obtain russians from a member of the rhba.

DMLinton · « **Reply #14 on:** February 25, 2015, 07:44:38 pm »

If your sense is that you want Russians and you can source some, go for it! Your perception of these bees sounds very similar to my own - things that a lot of beekeepers find problematic about Russians seems beneficial to me. My problem is that I cannot source Russians here in Ontario. The one breeder here wants over $200 for queens, which is irrelevant because he will not answer the dam**d phone or return calls.

My best advice to you on Russians? Listen intently to what riverbee says.

LogicalBee · « **Reply #15 on:** February 25, 2015, 09:02:26 pm »

I’ve purchased MN hygienic queens, Carniolan queens, and Italians years back. Since then I’ve caught probably 100 swarms of Lord only knows what genetics. All I can tell you is some are dark and some are light.

As Ray pointed out, it’s doubtful there are many pure bred queens in the bee business because of the nature of mating and the drones that will be around waiting (sans artificial insemination). Most queens are mutts of mixed genetics.

If you have a swarm, or supercedure, and your bees make their own queen, you’re going to end up with a mutt anyways at some point.

I see nothing wrong with buying a Russian queen and starting your bee keeping experience that way. But it’s worth keeping in mind that it will be a challenge to remain "pure"
over time. On the other hand, mutts can and do survive Michigan winters, so even if you do end up with mutts at some point they aren’t all bad either.

Dunkel · « **Reply #16 on:** February 25, 2015, 10:17:00 pm »

I tried Russians once. My experience was if I wanted to keep bees in my area they would be the ones. In ten nucs, five were Italians and five were Russian. After two years, four of the Russians were still kicking. I only got five supers of honey though. They pulled the winter with lots of stores, but built up too late for the poplar flow and made enough during basswood/sourwood to make the next winter. Swarms were part of it but dearths were also an influence. The Italians were like gambling, when times were good they were very good and visa versa.

For honey production in my area Italians have suited me well, with some drawbacks as far as management goes.
I know they were probably hybrids, and now those genes are part of my stock. My mutts seem to do ok in my climate. I may try carnolian to try as those seem to do well in my area also. More mixing of the genes. The thing I don't miss about the Russians if the gluing of everything in the hive together.

riverbee · « **Reply #17 on:** February 25, 2015, 10:33:58 pm »

very well said dunkel and good post.
the russians do build up late, in southern climates this might not be a good choice, but when they do build up, the queens can really lay up a storm if both natural pollen and nectar are coming in. they do hoard away and conserve, and conserve and overwinter in a smaller cluster more than any other strain of bee. in dearths, the queens completely shut down, so one will have very little honey, but on the flip side,this is a good thing, not so much feeding and survival rate is good going into winter months and also minor mite problems. russian bees can be kept without treatments. in a good pollen/nectar flow, honey production has been very good for me.

kingd · « **Reply #18 on:** February 26, 2015, 06:55:50 am »

I am trying a couple Russian queens (supposedly not hybrids) along with a few other local beekeepers,
I have been told they are a different bee, Have to be a little careful on introducing queens to non Russian hive supposedly.
I have seen mother and daughter laying side by side in a hive before too.

Riverrat · « **Reply #19 on:** February 26, 2015, 09:13:13 am »

Welcome to the forum. I dabbled in Russian bees a few years back. They always appeared to be hotter with each new queen they made after swarming, supercedure, splits etc. Honey production was ok but not the best in my area. I settled on keeping bees that was from the area. I picked them up from swarms and cutouts. They will be just as adapt if not more so than the Russians to your winters. I looked at the website you posted. Unless you have already spoken for a nuc they are saying they are sold out for 2015.