Author Topic: Stagnating Nucs... (Read 10030 times)

tedh · « **Reply #20 on:** July 05, 2015, 10:31:40 am »

Hmmmmm.... Josh took the queen from Lazy's nuc, being unconvinced that it was a queen issue, and basically traded it with a queen from one of his nucs. A queen swap if you will. I still have Lazy's queen in a cage with 5 attendants and will hang on to her at least until the new queen is accepted.

"Not a queen issue" is worrisome to me.

I've got a few busy days coming up however, I usually start early and poop out sometime in the afternoon, which makes it a good time to inspect a hive. Wednesday I'll be gone most of the day, and Thursday I'll be busy mowing in the late morning until mid afternoon or so. Lazy, I realize you stay busy yourself so I'm not suggesting it, but I will say that I'd be open to have you swing by if you'd like to take a peak. I'm not sure how far down the road to figuring this out that would get us, with that and the time deal and cost of travel, I'm not sure it would be worth it. I'll leave it up to you to make that call.

Just a thought that's been on my mind so I'll throw it out there: Could it be something like hyper-hygenics going on? Ted

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #21 on:** July 05, 2015, 06:33:12 pm »

If it is hygienic, then that means there is something wrong with the brood for it to be removed. or as Iddee stated it was a larvae created from a queen that mated with her own drone/s... however, that queen was laying well and the nuc was building well or I would not have let it go.
I have a few things to do this week, but will call you and set up a time Wed, or Thursday?

The Sac brood I have seen was larger larvae that were infected, not the TINY teeny larvae I am seeing here... it seems that the larvae emerge, and then die from a day old to three or four day old larvae... they get cleaned out and the queen re lays in those cells, making it look like she is doing a great job, except the larvae never make it to being capped.... at least, most of them.. SOME few larvae are being capped...
At a complete loss. I have never seen this before...

iddee · « **Reply #22 on:** July 05, 2015, 06:52:53 pm »

I have sent a link to this thread to my state bee inspector. Maybe we can get some ideas from there. Hopefully, I will hear back tomorrow or Tuesday.

tedh · « **Reply #23 on:** July 05, 2015, 07:50:40 pm »

Just for everyone's background info Lazy, Zweefer and I went through the nucs together back in May. SEVERAL nucs. The only one that had a problem was the one with the laying workers. They all looked GOOD. Lazy asked which ones I wanted, and after going through 20(?) nucs, what do you do? I pointed and said those two. I say this just to repeat Lazy's comment that the nucs looked good at that time, the queen was a pretty, stripped, fatty with a good laying pattern and large brood area.

How about this? It seems as though I was told that sperm, inside the queen, isn't all mixed up like a milkshake but rather in layers. Sperm from this drone isn't mixed up with sperm from that drone. What about the chances of the queens having mated with a few of their own drones and she is just now getting down to that layer of sperm? Maybe I dreamed this up but, I think it was a conversation with Iddee concerning queens laying brood with only one set of chromosomes. Going from memory and grasping at straws.

Lazy, if you're willing to make the drive I'll make the time. With the exception of Wednesday, my mom is having surgery that day. Ted

efmesch · « **Reply #24 on:** July 06, 2015, 06:12:53 am »

Lazybkpr says, "... Spotty brood, empty cells that are refilled with eggs... I looked deeper, and found larvae that was dead and brown.. some of it tiny, some of it a little older, none of it even close to be ready to be capped. I remember seeing this before, and thinking it was chilled brood because we had a few COLD nights early in the summer.. now I am not so sure, but I do not know what to make of it...
Both of these hives had these patches of dead brood.. I have seen AFB and checked or it.. I know the smell... this si not it... I have seen EFB and the rotten smell is something that sticks in my memory and is one of those things you cant UN remember... I have never seen sac brood, but this does not seem to match... It LOOKS like chilled brood.. dried up royal jelly and dead larvae... the bees remove it, and the queen re lays in those cells.... Less than 10% of the cells have been capped.. I opened some of those cells and found live viable larvae/pupae in them... SO, still looking for ideas, with the added information..."

My gut feeling says that there is some sort of disease behind this issue. As much as I don''t like to use antibiotics, in this case I would suggest applying terramycin in a powdered sugar mixture across the top of the supers, between the top bars of the frames.

tedh · « **Reply #25 on:** July 06, 2015, 08:01:49 am »

My gut feeling says that there is some sort of disease behind this issue. As much as I don''t like to use antibiotics, in this case I would suggest applying terramycin in a powdered sugar mixture across the top of the supers, between the top bars of the frames.
[/quote]

My son, Josh, made the same suggestion last evening. I'm not against the use of medications however, I'd like to KNOW what I'm treating for AND that the treatment is the right course of action. We have terramycin on hand but a definitive answer or at least a consensus as to what the problem is still eludes us. Ted

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #26 on:** July 06, 2015, 09:16:39 am »

I think I will agree with Ef and treat, but before I start I am going to take pictures so I can continue working to find out what is going on..

tedh · « **Reply #27 on:** July 06, 2015, 09:44:11 am »

Okay. I haven't read the directions on the container of terramycin yet but, can anyone who knows let me know how much medication to how much sugar and maybe a more detailed idea of how to apply it? Also, Josh did a queen swap with the queen from lazy and the queen from one of Josh's nucs. Has he now introduced a disease into his nuc? Will he need to treat both colonies? I still have Lazy's queen in a cage, how should I proceed with her? I'd like to introduce her into the nuc I took the queen from to requeen the problem hive. Again should we treat both hives and both nucs that had/has Lazy's queen in them? Thanks, Ted

That's kind of scrambled but I'm in a heck of a hurry.

tedh · « **Reply #28 on:** July 06, 2015, 01:30:08 pm »

Break time. I see that instead of terramycin I have a product from DADANT called "Tetra-Bee Mix 2X". Apparently the DADANT product is for treatment of "American foulbrood caused by paenibacillus larvae and European foulbrood caused by streptococcus pluton suceptible to oxytetracycline". Dear Lord save us! Reading the ingredients I see no mention of terramycin, and because we have it on hand, I'm sure it's not what we want. Best and fastest place to get terramycin? Thanks, Ted

iddee · « **Reply #29 on:** July 06, 2015, 02:44:33 pm »

local farm store.

tedh · « **Reply #30 on:** July 06, 2015, 04:11:20 pm »

Thanks Iddee. The local farmers co-op didn't have it but my wife is picking up 4 tablespoons of terramycin from the local vet right now. Now it's a question of mixing ratio and application process. Anyone out there have any experience/ideas? Thanks, Ted

skydiver · « **Reply #31 on:** July 07, 2015, 09:21:12 am »

Idiopathic brood disease syndrome. IBDS. Is what you are describing. I to have had problems as described with the dead brood. My mentor had it. I feel I have had it for up to two years had lots of problems grafting Queens I now feel it caused cells to be excepted drawn down, later to be torn down just before being capped some after being capped, some never emerge found mostly developed but dead queen. Hard to find the dead larva in hygienic bees because they remove the dead brood as fast as it dies. The spotty brood pattern was my mentors largest clue. The egg pattern looked good then looked at a frame of wet brood it was just a little bit spotty and the capped brood a little more spotty with an occasional capped having a small hole in the middle of the cap and dead larva under it that when removed was either watery, or lumpy like cottage cheese. He said to use Tetra-Bee Mix 2X to clean it up. He had it and it work on his and has not returned. Do not forget to burn your hive tool off between hives so you do not spread it. There is not a lot known about IBDS yet but some feel it a mutation of EFB.

Lburou · « **Reply #32 on:** July 07, 2015, 09:32:23 am »

Quote from: Dadant site about Tetra-Bee Mix 2X with Terramycin

Tetra-B Mix is a ready-to-feed mixture containing the antibiotic Terramycin. Recommended as an aid in the prevention of American and European foulbrood. May be used for fall treatment of colonies prior to winter or for the spring treatment of over wintered colonies. Spread over the top bars of the frames in each section of the brood nest. All use should stop at least four weeks prior to a surplus honey flow. 2 lb. shaker can, each.

"Idiopathic" means an unknown cause. There is a lot about bees and their maladies that scientists do not know. IBDS could describe one disease, or ten different diseases. They don't know. In this case, IBDS makes sense tome, and I'm eager to learn more about how things go in this hive.

Quote from: Kelley Site about Tetra-Bee Mix 2X with Oxytetracycline

Model #: 360T-10, 360T-2
Tetra-Bee Mix is a ready-to-feed antibiotic which contains Oxytetracycline. It is recommended for use to treat America Foulbrood. It may be used prior to winter or in the spring, spread it over the top bars of the frames in each section of the brood boxes. In the fall, put it on top of your inner cover. You should not use Tetra-Bee Mix at least six week prior to a surplus honey flow. Read directions before applying this product.

Ted, without knowing which Mix your mentor used (and, given a choice), I'd choose Oxy over Terramycin because Terramycin has been used prophylactically for decades and some resistance must follow after that time. JMO HTH

capt44 · « **Reply #33 on:** July 07, 2015, 09:50:56 am »

I raise Queens and I receive a lot of calls from folks all around the country saying my queen isn't laying or I can't find any brood or eggs.
They'll want a marked Queen and I'll ship them one.
This has been a weird year for bees.

tedh · « **Reply #34 on:** July 07, 2015, 10:43:03 am »

Thanks Lburou. I appreciate hearing that the Tetra-Bee Mix 2X might be the better course of action. As far as my "Mentor" goes I would say LazyBkpr is my defacto Mentor, though we really don't have what I perceive of as a strict mentor mentee relationship. He's just a good guy that lets me hang out with him and ask questions. This leads me to the point which is, I can't say what product he's used, if any. I believe this to be a first for both of us.

I do hope using the Dadant product is a good idea and not just me waiting to hear the answer I want. The reasons I like the idea is, we have it on hand, and the directions are clear. Lburou your reasoning for using it seems sound to me. Thanks, Ted

efmesch · « **Reply #35 on:** July 07, 2015, 10:59:49 am »

Does any one in the forum have contacts with the world of academia and know if any research is being done on this topic? Tec?

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #36 on:** July 11, 2015, 06:42:16 pm »

I have Terra Pro, and the hives here in the home yard have been treated with it.. I dont know what else to do in this situation.. if the terra pro does not solve the problem then I will have the tetra bee mix on hand by the time I determine the Terra pro worked or failed..

iddee · « **Reply #37 on:** July 11, 2015, 07:02:14 pm »

Ef, Yes, one of our state inspectors is bringing it up to our head inspector, along with a few others, in a meeting this weekend. The meeting includes names like David Tarpy.

http://www.ncbeekeepers.org/education/statewide-conferences/2015-ncsba-summer-conference/
http://www.ncbeekeepers.org/education/statewide-conferences/2015-ncsba-summer-conference/2015-summer-conference-speaker-profiles/

tedh · « **Reply #38 on:** July 25, 2015, 09:24:18 am »

I applied the third treatment of the Tetra-Bee Mix 2X yesterday, after a quick inspection. The bee numbers are up, lots of capped brood, larva of all sizes, and eggs! I'm pleased and excited but will keep a close eye on this hive. Ted

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #39 on:** July 25, 2015, 11:15:16 am »

Agreed, same here...
I do not know if those particular hives had gotten into something along the way, and it is now going away, or if the treatments made a difference... All of my hives that were having problems are now beginning to build up...
The location of each hive was specific, in that it was not ALL hives in my home yard, but only a select few of the better nucs. The nucs that were weaker have surpassed the nucs that were stronger, and ended up with this problem.. Queens from all of these nucs came from a dark queen that winters exceptionally well, She and her hive are still doing exceptionally well...
Never any smell, just a lot of TINY dead and drying up larvae.. the bees appear to have cleaned those larvae out. They have re laid those cells, and they are capped, with a surround of shiny white larvae about to be capped.... Keeping fingers crossed.
Anyhow, all appears to be resolved at this time...