Author Topic: Frames Used (Read 27184 times)

Edward · « **Reply #60 on:** January 30, 2014, 11:17:06 am »

I don't have problems with hive overheating in hot weather, but wouldn't the extra space in a brood box make it harder to keep warm and demand more bees and energy to keep the brood warm?

mvh Edward

riverbee · « **Reply #61 on:** January 30, 2014, 11:26:38 am »

edward, there is no 'extra space', with 9 frames spaced evenly, the frames are drawn out to bee space between the frames, and at the ends. hope i understood your question? so no, i don't see that it makes it harder for them to keep warm, or demand more bees and energy to keep the brood warm.

Edward · « **Reply #62 on:** January 30, 2014, 11:37:59 am »

Are/ dose the extra space make longer/taller bees?

mvh Edward

riverbee · « **Reply #63 on:** January 30, 2014, 11:51:01 am »

no more than 10 frames makes short bees......

Crofter · « **Reply #64 on:** January 30, 2014, 11:54:25 am »

I have read that using 11 narrower frames in a 10 frame lang brood box allows the bees to brood up quicker in cool weather because a given number of bees can cover more brood if the spaces between frames are narrower. Local conditions~

Jen · « **Reply #65 on:** January 30, 2014, 12:09:32 pm »

Edward- ""If you try to blow bees on tightly packed frames they hang on and aren't easily displaced and hide. If you can easily separate the frames a bit you can blast them with more air and move the frames and blow the bees of the frames and boxes. ""

Wouldn't this produce a lot of pissed off bees?

Jen · « **Reply #66 on:** January 30, 2014, 12:22:20 pm »

Crofter- ""Have an extra box and move the outside and moveable frames with their bees, into the new box untill you have only the stuck together ones in the box. You can turn it upside down and tap on the frame bottoms and perhaps get them free of the box then split them apart. If they are waxed to the bottom board twisting the body back and forth is better than jusst hauling up on it.""

I like Apis and Crofter's ideas, but with Crofter's I fear endangering the queen with all of the jostling and turning the hive upside down.

But she would most likely be in the top box right? But if it's a 65 day she could have migrated to the brood box?

riverbee · « **Reply #67 on:** January 30, 2014, 12:34:15 pm »

jen, she could be in either, and i would be hesitant to turn the box upside down. the wax they build on the bottoms of the frames is sometimes 'ladder comb'. enables the bees to come in the front door and 'go up the ladder' to the frame. you will also find this between the deeps, same concept, don't scrape it all off, just my HO.

EDIT~ would like to add jen, if you get a couple of frames out, it will give you the space to wiggle additional frames back and forth(one at a time and move to the empty space to work another) and either slide the frame over or pull the frame up gently with your hive tool to release it.

Edward · « **Reply #68 on:** January 30, 2014, 01:09:21 pm »

Quote from: Jen on January 30, 2014, 12:09:32 pm

Edward- ""If you try to blow bees on tightly packed frames they hang on and aren't easily displaced and hide. If you can easily separate the frames a bit you can blast them with more air and move the frames and blow the bees of the frames and boxes. ""

Wouldn't this produce a lot of pissed off bees?

That is also what I thought.

I help a friend harvest 15 hives and we pulled about 900 kilograms =1 984 pounds in 2 hours

In the air it looked like Armageddon and the sky was full of bees infront of the hives.

Turning a super up 90degrees and blowing the bees into the air about 1-1.5 yards/meters in front of the hive, air speed is not so much of a factor as volume of air and surprising the bees.

To minimize the risk of robbing we fed them all at the same time when all the honey was harvested.

We treeted them for varroa mites and started their Winter feeding.

From the time we took the last super of honey to we had fed all the hives it took about 30minutes during this time all the bees were back inside the hives, exept for a few on bits of burr comb and it was peaceful again in the bee yard.

mvh Edward

Crofter · « **Reply #69 on:** January 30, 2014, 01:15:36 pm »

Yes it would be good to know where the queen is. She could be anywhere but most likely in the top box with the brood. If you dont find her there then proceed to the bottom box; That is where the pair of frames are burred together isn't it?

Edward · « **Reply #70 on:** January 30, 2014, 01:27:12 pm »

When I have frames stuck together with the frame under it I put the little part of the hive tool under the topbar an prie it upwards using the nearest frame as a support, no squished bees

mvh Edward

Edward · « **Reply #71 on:** January 30, 2014, 01:34:29 pm »

Quote from: Edward on January 30, 2014, 01:09:21 pm

In the air it looked like Armageddon and the sky was full of bees in front of the hives.Turning a super up 90 degrees and blowing the bees into the air about 1-1.5 yards/meters in front of the hive, airspeed is not so much of a factor as volume of air and surprising the bees.

A few fotos

mvh Edward

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #72 on:** January 30, 2014, 01:58:56 pm »

OK.. sorry, been busy!!!
I am with Mrs River.. it has been my experience that bees keep the BEE SPACE the same, weather you run 8 frames or eleven.. given time they will return the spacing between the combs to what they consider Juuuuust right.. so the only advantage to me would seem that with an extra frame for with which the queen could produce brood in, or the bees could put winter stores in... I am no researcher so I cant tell you about wintering and mites. and if more frames or less have an effect\.. I already have other methods to deal with those things so those reasons are unimportant. (to me) When I can see research that difinitively proves one way or the other is better I may give it a go. Until then, I use ten frames, because it means my brood frames and super combs are the same size. I dont have to keep track of differences.. narrow frames or thick frames etc.. to me that is enough advantage to stick with ten... for now

Jen..
If I was given that mess of brace comb to fix...
I would move those conjoined frames to the outside edge of the brood box to minimize brood in them. Perhaps, even move them upward IF they can be removed as one..
You know I use foundation-less frames. SO I have had my fair share of messes to fix. I have found that pulling the frames and using the hot kife to "decap" JUST like you would if you were taking the cappings off honey comb will instantly flatten out those combs.
If the bees have drawn the comb sideways, that section alone will need to be removed/scraped off/cut out so they can repair that spot correctly. Put the frames back in with correct spacing, and they should do a FINE job of repairing it...

G3farms · « **Reply #73 on:** January 30, 2014, 02:12:08 pm »

I would smoke the bees out from between the frames and then use a long serrated knife (think bread knife) to cut the burr and brace comb in half. Makes life so much easier to remove the frame this way. After removing the frame take your knife and trim up all of the burr and brace comb. Now this may require you to do some heavy trimming, if you don't get to the start of the sideways comb they will remake the sideways comb.

Edward · « **Reply #74 on:** January 30, 2014, 02:12:47 pm »

Many northern beekeepers pull 1 or 2 frames per box and center the frames tightly under Winter making more ventilation on the sides.
This prevents moldy frames, usually they take pollen frames out.

The thinking behind this is you can take them out in the fall or after the Winter because they are moldy

mvh Edward

G3farms · « **Reply #75 on:** January 30, 2014, 02:17:48 pm »

Not sure why you would run 9 frames in a ten frame brood box, They are only going to pull the cell so deep for brood. If the cells are too deep I doubt the queen would lay in them.

For those of you who do use 9 in a 10 brood box, do you see brood in the extended cells?

riverbee · « **Reply #76 on:** January 30, 2014, 07:01:14 pm »

no extended brood cells g.
i run 9 frames for a number of reasons, (fully drawn comb) in brood boxes; ventilation, relieve congestion, ease of manipulation of frames, less rolling of the bees, and for me, a northern keep, a smidge more eek space between frames for more bees to cluster in our extreme winter weather. i said in an earlier post about not having extra space, there may be a little extra space......

i think lazy said it best or being on the right track about bees:
"it has been my experience that bees keep the BEE SPACE the same, weather you run 8 frames or eleven.. given time they will return the spacing between the combs to what they consider Juuuuust right.."

they do. the bees know the difference between what is brood comb and what is honey and honey/pollen storage comb. the frames on the ends will be drawn out thicker than the brood comb frames, and to a certain degree takes up the extra space in a 9 frame deep; because they will draw these out much thicker, and also, you might find that the brood food, the semi circle, above the brood might be drawn out a little thicker. overall the brood combs remain the same, so there are no 'extended cells' in the brood frames. brood frame draw out is constant, or always the same depth , it is not the same depth/width as the honey frames. this can change with the season and the bees.

how does this change? what lazy said, and, you southern keeps have to remember that us northern keeps need our 2nd deeps heavy with honey. we don't have the option to open a hive and feed, or feed at all; unless our deeps are heavy, we leave an extra super on, candy board, feed on top the frames, etc.... the bees will convert the 2nd deep to winter stores. i think my bees winter better with 9 frames, rather than 10 frames. a little extra space to cluster more bees between frames, and thick, heavy honey frames to winter on. call me crazy but that is my method of madness.

i don't find any moldy frames come spring edward, it get's too cold here, and the frames that remain full on the outsides are good feed for spring bees.

hope i made sense?

G3farms · « **Reply #77 on:** January 30, 2014, 07:24:27 pm »

Well that made a bunch of sense except for the part about them knowing the difference between storage cells and brood cells. Can you elaborate on that for my pea brain. My bees will use cells for both when the time calls for it. My question on this is, if they pull out deep cells in the brood chamber for honey storage will they trim them back for brood rearing? Not trying to argue here just curious as to what you are seeing.

Crofter · « **Reply #78 on:** January 30, 2014, 07:28:47 pm »

I have seen deep drawn frames for honey storage that when the brood area expands in the spring the cells get chewed back to proper brood cell depth. There probably are other benefits from the use of only nine frames but I find there is plenty of room in a full box if you pull either of the side frames and shift the others over. I prefer to have the shoulders of the side bars tight together so there is no squeezing of bees in between them when I shift them around. I dont have the extreme heat that you southern people have to contend with.

I do agree with riverbee though on running only 9 in the honey boxes after their initial drawing.

I see in Jens conundrum that the two gummed up frames seem to have a wider than normal spacing. I would conjecture that might have lead to the burr and brace comb in that area.

riverbee · « **Reply #79 on:** January 31, 2014, 10:56:19 am »

"Well that made a bunch of sense except for the part about them knowing the difference between storage cells and brood cells. Can you elaborate on that for my pea brain. My bees will use cells for both when the time calls for it. My question on this is, if they pull out deep cells in the brood chamber for honey storage will they trim them back for brood rearing? Not trying to argue here just curious as to what you are seeing."

i love your pea brain g....

you answered your own question, LOL. this is no different like say the queen lays up in the first honey super, chase her out of there and the bees take care of the brood and once all hatched, revert the comb back to honey storage. given the extra space in 9 frames, the honey frames are drawn out thicker. let's say you go in and mess up the nursery, and place a honey frame in the center of the brood nest, what do the bees do? the bees commence fixing what you just did.