Author Topic: DIY Boxes  (Read 12612 times)

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Offline Perry

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DIY Boxes
« on: December 05, 2013, 06:53:11 pm »
I'm pretty lucky to have a local mill not 10 minutes down the road. I can get pine milled 7/8" x 9 3/4" for 50 cents a foot! That works out to a little less than $4 a deep in material.
I've done this outside mostly, but every now and then I happen to have a load of it when I stop in to visit my cabinet maker friend!  ;) It was my friend who showed me how to get a decent rabbet cut done without having to stack all the dado blades on and running the wood through flat. (1st pic). Once I saw how to set it up it made it easy.
Cut to length, and all end pieces cut with 3 rabbets, 2 for the corners and one for the frame rest, and that's it. Bring home, glue and screw, and you got some real sturdy deeps for a fraction of the cost.











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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: DIY Boxes
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2013, 08:38:06 pm »
BOXES!!!
   I often have people interested in buying my boxes question my corners....

   I have used box joints, and rabbited corners like Perry shows...  I will not now, or EVER put down such corners.. I think,if you have the time, and equipment to MAKE those corners.. and that is the type of corner you LIKE, then you SHOULD make them JUST like that...
   Now, having said that...   I would pose a question;
   How strong does a corner need to be? What is the purpose they are serving?

   I stopped making box joints, and started making them much like Perry does.. I used drill bits/counter sinks, screws and glue to make them STRONG... until a local beek asked me why I did that....
   He brought me a box he had made. it had butt jointed corners with brad nails...    If your selling boxes, you need to make them so people want to BUY them.. if your making them for yourself, you need to make them so they last five or six years.. at which point the corners start to get soft, and rot out where you pry them apart.  His approach was that woodenware was disposable.. you did what you could to make it last. repainting it etc.. but inevitably after a few years you replaced it.. The JOINT of the corner was NEVER the problem..   SO...
   I built a couple of boxes with butt joints at the corners. I used titebond III on them. I nailed them with brad nails, squared them, and let them dry...
   Those two boxes were strong enough I could STAND on the corners.. holding onto the side rail of my truck bed to balance..   I am quite sure if I bounced on them i could have busted those corners.. but then... I think i could bust ANY corner if I bounced my 180 lbs on it...
  Convinced.. i have been building them that way ever since, and have not regretted it..

  I still have a few of the Box joint boxes I built.. they are splitting and warping in multiple places from those boxed corners.. All those corners and edges are a PAIN top keep sealed... the boxes like Perry builds are easier to seal, but harder to make the frame rests, unless you dont mind leaving the little corner for beetles to hide in etc...  I still have about six boxes built like that.. i used my router to make the frame rests to avoid the corner gaps...
  Using the butt joints.. I dont have to worry about it.. the boxes are still quite strong for prying apart etc..  I havent had a problem with them yet. I like the EASE of sealing the end grain and corners..  and I like the ease of running the frame rests with the table saw...
  In a few more years maybe I can point to problems doing it this way, but at this point.. i am having difficulty justifying the extra time to make fancy corners..
   I DEFINITELY dont like the box corners.. the way perry shows is good, and strong and not hard to seal and keep sealed.. my only complaint is nailing and splitting if you dont drill, and running the frame rest all the way across...
   SO I have resorted to doing it this way;



   Plenty of glue, and about six 1.5 inch brad nails per corner.. no drilling to put in big nails and no worries about splits... Seal the end grain with paint when you paint the boxes and there are no issues.  Once the glue dries they will hold up to anything you will do to them in the bee yard, and they take less TIME, even if they seem cheesier... Its entirely up to you!
    Scott
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Offline iddee

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Re: DIY Boxes
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2013, 08:58:29 pm »
With rabbet joints you have 50% more surface contact for the glue, and only half the end grain surface exposed to the weather. That's why I like them over the butt joint.
“Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me... Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: DIY Boxes
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2013, 10:08:08 pm »
Absolutely!!   i wont deny they are stronger or easier to seal..  I only claim easier and "strong enough"    :mrgreen:
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Offline Perry

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Re: DIY Boxes
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2013, 07:01:00 am »
That's sort of the approach I'm taking with my bottom boards. Nothing seems to last so I have reached the point that I try to build the easiest, quickest, and hopefully cheapest bottom boards I can.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: DIY Boxes
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2013, 09:27:10 am »
I intend to try some of the ECO wood treatment.. but its 35 miles to the closest "Chain store" to get some.. havent made the trip yet, but intend to within the next week or two.. wood/glue/ECO to get more hives/frames built..   I am particularly interested to see if I can paint OVER the ECO.. use it to seal everything, then coat the hives in traditional paint.. not sure it will stick, but should help sealing in between boards, cracks, old nail holes etc...
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Offline robo

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Re: DIY Boxes
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2013, 10:49:00 am »
Wow,  awesome shop.  I am envious of your friend.

I haven't built boxes in a while, but I've had really good results with the half-blind dovetails.   I will admit that getting the jig set up correctly is a pain in the a$$,  and once set, it is only used for bee boxes.


That aside,  I build all my bee vacs with rabbet joints and have never had any issue.   Even had a few guys test them off a moving truck.   I think the added strength, the reduction of exposed end-grains, and no need of specialty tools makes this the "best" joint.

Nothing wrong with butt joints if time or tools limit you to that (though I have heard of guys making rabbet joints with a skil saw :?  )

The absolute strongest joint I think is the through dovetail.   I use a lot of the polystyrene boxes and I don't even glue them.   I have had bear attacks and the joints still hold up.  And the other nice part is you can knock them down for storage or transport. Here are 20 double 5 frame nucs knocked down compared to one deep hive body assembled.http://http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/portable-double-nucs/

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Offline G3farms

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Re: DIY Boxes
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2013, 11:05:04 am »
WOW talk about space savings on the poly boxes.

How long will the poly boxes last compared to wood?

Rob i see you are doing ross rounds, would you start a thread on this in the "products of the hive" section please. I am going to try some this spring and could use a few pointers. Bought some third hand stuff, enough for two supers.

What is ECO wood?
Bees are bees and do as they please!

.... --- -   -... . . ...   .-- .. .-.. .-..   .... .- ...- .   -.-- --- ..-   ... - . .--. .--. .. -. --.   .- -. -..   ..-. . - -.-. .... .. -. --.   .-.. .. -.- .   -.-- --- ..- .-.   .... . .- -..   .. ...   --- -.   ..-. .. .-. .   .- -. -..   -.-- --- ..- .-.   .- ... ...   .. ...   -.-. .- - -.-. .... .. -. --.

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: DIY Boxes
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2013, 12:13:49 pm »
:)   I dont think I'd be thrilled about testing mine off a truck :P  The Vac's are sold, so you NEED to make em PERTY and strong!!! No place for a butt joint there..

  Eco wood treatment.. claims TREAT ONCE and never again!!!   we shall see...

   http://ecowoodtreatment.com/

    I have read claims that it didnt work well on pine, but that was refuted.. it works GREAT on pine but the patina is not as desirable to those who want a natural "look" to the wood they use it on...   Sent a mail to see if it can be covered...

    stains and sealers are not recommended.  Tints are recommended if a particular color is desired.  Simply add 5 ounces of any water based tint to 1 gallon of Eco Wood Treatment.  Tint can be purchased at your local paint store.OR YOU CAN PURCHASE ECO WOOD TREATMENT ALREADY TINTED,COLOURS ARE ,BLACK ,BLUE.GREEN.BROWN,RED,YELLOW,AND ORANGE
   
   Still waiting to find out more..
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Offline Perry

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Re: DIY Boxes
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2013, 12:24:19 pm »
Saltspring Island!  :shock:  
I'm not knocking this particular product, but it is only one of the products coming off that island that is "well known"!   :roll:  
BC bud is famous world wide, and Saltspring is full of granola types, !  ;)
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Offline robo

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Re: DIY Boxes
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2013, 12:32:28 pm »
Richard Taylor was a strong advocate for creosote.  But since you no longer can buy it, I went the next cheapest route,  used motor oil.    I used it on a couple of TBHs and a bunch of supers 8 years ago.  They still look great to this day.   Unfortunately it is not an option for polystyrene  :(



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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: DIY Boxes
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2013, 01:01:24 pm »
Got a reply..


   Hi you can paint over it if you like , best regards Bruce

   Short without much detail.. I may give it a try..  
   Perry...  wondering if this is something I should stay away from by your post???
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: DIY Boxes
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2014, 09:38:20 am »
Been almost a month Perry! Time to answer!!!     ;D

   ROBO..  can you explain the process of used Motor Oil?    I paint ALL our wooden fences with it liberally about every five years, and I LOVE the way they look and last..   I hadnt considered it on hives.. doesnt it upset the bees?

    Assumptions...    Obviously you only paint the outside of the boxes..    paint the oil on, let it soak and then wipe off the excess? Several coats?? Air out and dry for any specific amount of time?

   Used motor oil works WONDERS to keep the horses from chewing stalls and fences, looks amazing and preserves the wood. m Just not sure how well the bees will take to it.
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Offline Perry

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Re: DIY Boxes
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2014, 10:19:20 am »
So sorry Lazy, I missed this one!
IMHO, the "lifetime" stuff you mix with water is not something I have a lot of faith in. I have seen some houses where they applied this to new clapboard (Lunenburg ) and within a few years the clapboard was almost black. Not attractive. Just before I started working for the town (Lunenburg) in the public works dept. they had applied it to a bunch of new picnic tables we put out in the parks each year. They did not last any longer than the painted ones, but at least they didn't have to be scraped and repainted.
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Offline Slowmodem

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Re: DIY Boxes
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2014, 01:25:44 pm »
....I went the next cheapest route,  used motor oil.    I used it on a couple of TBHs and a bunch of supers 8 years ago.  They still look great to this day.

Thinking outside the box here, I wonder if using used motor oil on my wooden step and deck would keep the carpenter bees from chewing into it?
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Offline Jen

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Re: DIY Boxes
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2014, 06:23:08 pm »
To All You Guys Who Added To This Post ~

Hubby started making my mediums today, he had some questions so went to the internet. I walked into the room to sit at my computer for a bit, and saw what he was looking for.

I said "WAIT! I KNOW SOME GUYS THAT WILL BE ABLE TO HELP YOU! Just give me a sec..." So I got onto this post... and Wah Lah, he got his answers!

What a great bunch of people on this forum! THANKS!




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Offline blueblood

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Re: DIY Boxes
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2014, 06:26:08 pm »
Awesome! Glad we all could be of assistance.  Tell him not to be shy to ask any further questions on hive building.

Offline Jen

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Re: DIY Boxes
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2014, 06:30:40 pm »
Okay Blue, will do! ~ but trust me, he hears quite enough of my ramblings on what the daily topic is here... every day. I am in charge of keeping him updated ~ He's A Very Patient Man... ;)
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: DIY Boxes
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2014, 08:02:25 pm »
wow...  just looked at the post.. not much on it..
   I've built just over two hundred boxes since I was here last..     




   Only new thing is the tapered jig for hand holds..  Guess I better go update my own site too.


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Offline blueblood

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Re: DIY Boxes
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2014, 08:34:56 pm »
Jen, is he going to be as much a keep as you?  You should get him a handle and encourage him to start chatting with us.