Lost hive

[Apis63]

Hi Everyone!
Well, my worst fear came to pass this morning. Went out to check my two hives and one was dead. I had suspicions because I listened one evening last week and didn't hear anything, but wanted to wait until it was really warm to check.  I'm disappointed because this was definitely the stronger of the two hives throughout the summer.  I have a lot of questions for you all-- if you can help answer them for me, maybe it will help me to figure out what went wrong and what I can change in the future. I should tell you that both of the hives are wrapped in tar paper and have candy boards inside.
Of course, my biggest question is "Why did this happen and what went wrong?" I know there are lots of possibilities and I think I have it narrowed down to two.  I know there was a mouse in the hive at some point because I saw tracks in January--the bees were still alive the day I saw the tracks, as I listened outside the hive. (I did catch a mouse in a trap I set outside the hive a week later--and this is certainly not to say that there weren't more). There was also some (not a ton of) poop on the bottom board of the hive when I cleaned it out today. I'm just having a hard time believing that it was a mouse that did in
this hive. There was no destruction on the frames--wouldn't a mouse cause some sort of disturbance to the comb?
The second possibility is that there was moisture in the hive and the irregular temperatures we've had here caused the bees to freeze.
So, here are the questions swirling in my head this afternoon:
      Why did I lose one hive and not the other if they were both prepared for winter in the same way? Was the hive I thought to be the stronger hive really the weaker one? I did have an extra shallow box of frames with some (not much) honey on the hive that died. Would that extra box have had something to do with the bees having difficulty regulating the temperature inside the hive? Is less space more desirable for overwintering?
      Should I have wrapped the hives at all?  I have read pros and cons of wrapping hives. I just went with my instincts and wrapped.  Also, at what point do I unwrap my existing hive.  Naturally, I am afraid of losing that hive now and if the tar paper traps moisture, is that something I want to leave on during these 50 degree days we're going to have for the next week? The issue is, we may have quite a bit more winter left.  Do I need to be afraid of unwrapping it prematurely? Gosh.......there are a lot of variables in beekeeping.  It is definitely not an exact science!
     I definitely am afraid of losing my one remaining hive now that I've lost the one.  Is there anything I can do between now and April to ensure their survival? Should I put a pollen patty in the hive?
     I also have a few questions about the frames from the dead hive.  Do I remove the bees and keep the comb intact? Or do I remove all the old comb and start over with just the foundation? A lot of the comb had bees stuck half way in and it would be difficult to pick out each bee.
     Sick, just sick about this..........any guidance you can give me will be appreciated.

[Perry]

First, sorry to hear about the hive.
Second, it's going to happen! If you keep bees you will lose hives, that's a fact. The first loss is always the most devastating (I know).
Third, just because both hives were treated exactly the same doesn't necessarily mean all that much. Acceptable bee losses going back decades is 10- 15%, and is even higher as of late. The loss of the one hive may have just fallen into that margin. Sometimes you can do everything right, and it still comes out wrong. That is Nature.

A few questions, did your hives have an upper entrance?
You mentioned having an extra super on that was partially empty? During winter, less space is better than too much.
Mice did not do this hive in, they tend to move in and become a problem after the fact and do not themselves kill a hive.
Wrapping is a personal choice, I do more for the solar gain than any other reason. I tend to unwrap a little later than many (April/May) but again, that is just a personal choice.
You mentioned bees halfway into cells? Was this group of bees within contact of stores? Finding bees headfirst in cells is a sign of starvation. Bees can starve inches away from stores if the cluster cannot warm up enough to shift onto those stores (that's why I wrap).
Do not put a pollen patty in the hive until your bees have resources to raise brood, that is what a pollen patty will do, stimulate brood rearing.
"there are a lot of variables in beekeeping.  It is definitely not an exact science" You bet, and that is what makes it so interesting and such a challenge. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it and we would quickly get bored with it.

Remove the frames and brush off as many dead bees as you can and store them safely where wax moth won't be a problem. Lightly tapping the frame on it's side will dislodge many that are in the cells, but don't get too exuberant or you'll knock comb off (ask me). When you go put these frames in another hive that is doing well, the bees will clean everything up so well you'll have a hard time picking them out from the rest.

Most important! From what I can tell, you did nothing wrong! You have one hive that is surviving and that you decided to have more than just one already displays good decision making. That is why we always encourage people to have more than one. Sometimes this stuff happens.

Chin up, the rest of us here will help however we can. Pics taken during the post-Morten would be valuable when the time comes.

[Apis63]

Thanks for your reply, Perry, and your kind and encouraging words. The hardest part for me is not knowing what killed them, but what you said about food stores really hit home. I did leave a super of honey and had the candy board at the top, but after hearing from you I am thinking that maybe I didn't leave enough honey for the size of the colony--it was definitely the bigger of the two. Maybe it just wasn't enough to support the number of bees and the candy board was too far away (two deep supers, a shallow super, and then the candy board). The candy board had one hole drilled in it, but it wasn't an entrance, just a vent hole. The only other entrance was at the bottom. Should I have another entrance? Where would that entrance be? I didn't take pictures, but, in hindsight wish I would have. The record-keeping part of beekeeping is something I definitely need to work on.
The frames with drawn comb that were salvaged from the hive should go into my surviving hive at some point? My plan is to get two new boxes of bees to start two new hives in late April. Can I use that drawn comb in the new hives or should it specifically be put into an existing hive--or doesn't it matter?
Thanks again for the advice and reassurance--it helped so much!

[Perry]

If the shallow super was almost empty and the candy board was on top of that, it would be difficult for the cluster to reach that during a cold spell.
I typically run double deeps with an upper entrance year round, enough to ventilate, and as an entrance when snow and ice block the bottom off. Not everyone believes in upper entrances, but where I am they make a difference.










If the comb is in good shape, I would be inclined to use it to help get your 2 new colonies in the spring, drawn comb will be a tremendous advantage to them. Are you getting packages or nucs?

[Apis63]

Perry, I have two packages reserved, but can you tell me the difference between a package of bees and a nuc? A nuc is a small established colony, right? With the queen already introduced? What are the advantages of purchasing a nuc instead of packaged bees? I also thought it would be to my advantage to find a beekeeper in Wisconsin who sells native bees, as opposed to buying bees that came on a truck from California. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think they would tend to overwinter better? I am not a member of a beekeeping club (but definitely SHOULD be!) so I really haven't connected with other beekeepers in my area, but the few people I have heard of in WI who sell native bees are already sold out.
Also, how do you feed over the winter? Thanks for the pictures--I will be modifying my inner covers!

[riverbee]

good to hear from you!

perry has given you some great thoughts!

another member (robo) i greatly admire here recently posted "Bees are survivors,  but there is a difference between surviving and thriving......"
this is very true. we may never know why one hive survived and one didn't. so many variables.

my comments to your questions:

1~ wrapping with tar paper is not going to hurt your bees. in our climate it is a good practice. wind break and as perry said, some 'solar gain'.  if you wrapped them with something else that totally insulates and causes moisture........different story.  i wrap, never had a moisture problem from the wrap.

2 ~ mouse poop is very dark and little black turds. your entrance reducer will show signs of chewing or just chewed out for them to gain entrance.
in the future, consider using hardware cloth or entrance reducers to detour them.  mice do stress the bees. if the bees are in cluster they may move out of cluster to defend the hive.  in cold weather this is detrimental to them.
bee poop is dark brown, you will see this on the outside of the hive, on the top of the outer cover and on the face of the hives, you may see some on the inside of the hive.  if it is all over the tops of the frames or the face of the frames, your bees may have succumbed to a nosema infection.
also, mice are very destructive in a hive.

3 ~ moisture-did you place any insulation on top of the hive under the outer cover? if so what did you use?

4 ~ entrance at the top bottom is a good thing in our climate. i do use entrance reducers at the bottom, open at the widest.  i cut my inner covers open wider to about 2 1/2 inches to 3 inches.  this helps them in the summer and in the winter months.

4 ~ feed......any feed needs to be directly  above the bees for them to move up into. in our climate, sometimes they will not move side to side because of our extreme temperatures. no barriers. my humble opinion.  supers full of honey should be directly on top. any sugar bricks directly place on top of the frames with a shim in place. candy boards with a hold drilled in it, not going to be directly above the bees, they have to go through that to get to the feed. revamp the candy board and use hardware cloth on the bottom, or just use sugar bricks and shims so the feed is directly on top of the frames for the bees to move to.  they will cluster there and utilize the feed. (not a fan of candy boards, too restrictive imho)

5 ~ bees with heads in cells. bees will crawl into empty cells to help warm the cluster.  they will starve and then freeze.  did they starve? yes. why?
in our climate, they can and will starve inches away from honey stores simply because our weather traps them in one place, doesn't let up, and they don't move, or can't move.  not sure if i made sense here?

6 ~ no pollen patty!

7 ~ you can re-use the frames per perry's directions, and the bees will clean up what you couldn't.

like perry said, chin up, and i say don't give up! we all suffer losses!

[riverbee]

"I have two packages reserved, but can you tell me the difference between a package of bees and a nuc? A nuc is a small established colony, right? With the queen already introduced? What are the advantages of purchasing a nuc instead of packaged bees? I also thought it would be to my advantage to find a beekeeper in Wisconsin who sells native bees, as opposed to buying bees that came on a truck from California. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think they would tend to overwinter better? I am not a member of a beekeeping club (but definitely SHOULD be!) so I really haven't connected with other beekeepers in my area, but the few people I have heard of in WI who sell native bees are already sold out.
Also, how do you feed over the winter? Thanks for the pictures--I will be modifying my inner covers!"

where are the packages reserved from?

a nuc is a small established colony, should be, with a queen that has already been laying, however, this is not always the case, so you need to ask questions.  some will just throw frames in a nuc box, shake bees in there, put a caged queen in, let her out, sell it and call it good.  this is not a good nuc. buying survivor bees here in wisconsin is pretty tough. done correctly the nuc will advance quicker than a package of bees.

how i feed over the winter..........i take supers off before a honey flow ends. i feed if necessary.  i place feeding shims on with sugar bricks on top of frames for extra insurance and monitor, either by hefting the hive and checking the feed on top.

[Perry]

To add to what riverbee has said, where I am most folks buy nucs, simply because it is most common, they include 4 frames of comb, and the queen is laying. Almost all packages here are imported from either Australia or New Zealand.
I prefer local and this year I will not even be ordering imported queens, which means my nuc sales will be later when local queens become available.
When temps get too low to feed syrup I resort to feeding fondant. You can find some recipes here, or see if there is a bakery near you that sells it (be careful you buy the right stuff). I feed like this:
http://www.worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php/topic,6596.0.html

[Zweefer]

I have nothing to add, other than you are doing right by ordering more bees!  Keep up the good fight as it were, and learn from this.  I spent the first couple of years learning all the easy ways to kill my bees in winter.  Once they taught me that,  the girls have decided it's time for me to learn all the variations in springtime management
It's a journey, and not one for the faint of heart.  So keep it up!
I also agree with Perry - it's not always our fault, even though it feels that way. Every time.

Also, I owe you an apology. You had asked for a place to get queens, and I never got back to you. When I get back from FL I will do so ASAP. I have a few to recommend, and one to avoid at all costs! 

[robo]

another member (robo) i greatly admire here recently posted "Bees are survivors,  but there is a difference between surviving and thriving......"
this is very true. we may never know why one hive survived and one didn't. so many variables.

I normally don't get in the middle of these kind of posts because my views contradict the "accepted" practices of beekeeping and not what people want to hear. Quite frankly it gets tiring as well.

For the last 15-20 years,  I do not consider my mentor to be beekeepers, but rather the feral survivor colonies.  I have witnessed 100s of feral colonies and can not understand how beekeepers believe that doing the exact opposite of what bees do when left on their own is the answer.    Feral bees want NO ventilation other than the entrance hole.  They propolize every little crack and crevice.   Do you open the upstairs window in your house in the winter to "let moisture out"?  Think of your oil bill if you did...  Bees are the same way, except their oil is honey.

The biggest misnomer in beekeeping is "cold doesn't kill bees, moisture does".   This has probably killed more bees than anything else.  Beekeepers constantly pushing ventilating for moisture control is misguided with the terrible side effect of increase heat loss.   Bees want to be warm, just like we do.   Warm air holds more moisture, so less condensation.   Just like we want to breathe moist air in winter to keep out throats from becoming irritated, so do the bees.  Nosema and other viruses thrive on bees with dry/sore throats.

Although I have been using insulated hives with no top ventilation for many years now, some recent research tells me I could do even better..  I might add that 2 deeps of honey is the "norm" for wooden Langstroths to make it through the winter here, but I winter in just 1 deep poly hives and even on the coldest winters still have 3-5 frames of honey in spring.

Derek Mitchell from the UK has just done some great research on the insulated values of bee hives and bee trees.   He has determined that bees in a wild tree do not need to cluster until the ambient temperature hits -40.   Let that sink in for a moment.  This means most wild colonies NEVER cluster.   3/4" pine gives you about a 8-15F delta above ambient (double deep Langstroth).  So best case,  if your ambient temp drops below 25F your bees are clustering.   When they cluster, they have very difficult time moving to new stores for food.

Derek's paper can be found here if anyone wants to dig into the details -> http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00484-015-1057-z

I have been in discussion with Derek,  and am working on related experiments on US hives.  At some point I will share my findings.

I didn't intend to highjack your thread,  but wanted to at least get you to think deeper than the normal beekeeping wisdom.

Sorry for your hive loss.

[Zweefer]

I would be very interested in the results when you get to that point Robo!

[robo]

I would be very interested in the results when you get to that point Robo!

Sure thing.

[Lburou]

Most of us hobbyist beekeepers have a real soft spot in our hearts for our bees, and loosing a good hive is a blow.  I'm sorry for your loss.

Venting is one of those bee topics that has a wide range of philosophies among beekeepers. 

There is a good article written by By Meghan Milbrath at Michigan State University Extension on the subject of Why did my honey bees die?  There is some good, time and location tested information for you there.  I hope it helps you sort things out. 

[Apis63]

Thanks so much for replying to my post Perry, Riverbee, Zweefer, Robo, and Lburou! I took a little something from all of you and will use it to become a "wiser" beekeeper! I am not about to give up on this hobby after one loss. I am absolutely in love with the bees and have found myself becoming an advocate over the past year, even encouraging some friends to try their hand at keeping bees. We live in such a peaceful, beautiful spot here in the Northwoods--a perfect place for bees!
Riverbee, I want to respond to a few points you made.  Regarding the mouse: There we signs that he was there, aside from the telltale "turds" on the bottom board of the hive.  I did have an entrance reducer in place, but it was definitely chewed.  I understand what you said about the mouse causing upset within the hive--I can imagine that would cause the bees to uncluster. I think that, in addition to the food source being too far away, caused the demise of the colony.  I am going to take your advice and use shims next year--no more candy box.  I am going to make sure that the food source is as close to the bees as I can get it! I did not use any sort of insulation on the outer cover. The more I read from all of you, the more I tend to think that moisture was not what killed this colony. I think it was a combination of stress from the mouse AND the food source being too far away.  You all really helped me to come to that conclusion, which gives me some peace. I like having answers and that's what I'm going with!
Last year I got my packaged bees from Hansen's Honey Farm in Rhinelander. I have two packages reserved again for this year. The owner drives to California each year and brings back a flatbed truck full of packaged bees. Probably not a great ride for the bees, but it has to be better than being sent through the mail! As I said, I wish I could find bees right here in WI, but the few beekeepers I heard of who had them are sold out and are taking orders for next year already!

[Barbarian]

Apis63

One of the benefits of this forum is that you get opinions from different keeps in a friendly way.

I have a different slant on your lost hive. I'm sorry you lost your hive but rather than beating your breast there could be a positive note.

Perhaps the strain of bees in your lost hive was not suitable to your local conditions. Your other hive is a winter survivor    ..... so, it might be worthwhile to use eggs from it to make queens to head colonies going into next winter.

One of my hives, that has survived so far, seems to have more bees and is going strongly at the supplementary feed. I do not intend to use eggs from it to provide queens for the next generation.

[Bakersdozen]

I have two packages reserved again for this year. The owner drives to California each year and brings back a flatbed truck full of packaged bees. Probably not a great ride for the bees, but it has to be better than being sent through the mail! As I said, I wish I could  find bees right here in WI, but the few beekeepers I heard of who had them are sold out and are taking orders for next year already!

This is how they are distributed, for the most part, in my neck of the woods.  It's faster than waiting for splits and nucs and many beginners are eager to take the plunge.
I would place an order for next year.  You can always cancel.  You are still in the learning curve and might need a back up plan next year.
Winter prep varies in different geographical areas.  I might suggest checking with the folks that you are buying the package bees from for their recommendations on winter prep.
When I read your original post on the lost hive, my first thoughts were something I learned in the last year...the hard way.
"I'm disappointed because this was definitely the stronger of the two hives throughout the summer. "
I heard Ed Colby, who has a monthly column in Bee Culture magazine, talk last fall.  He said that the stronger colonies are the ones that you will lose because of varroa mites.  I thought back on my past experiences and it was true for me.  Last year, I tried Carnolians.  I had two colonies side by side.  One brought in tons of honey, the other not so much.  I was slow to do post nectar flow treatments and guess which one absconded?  The strong one.
I have also lost colonies that worked themselves in to a corner or couldn't access honey stores that were inches away.
It's heart breaking to lose lose colonies.  Even old timers lose colonies. 
This is my 2 cents worth.

[riverbee]

"Last year I got my packaged bees from Hansen's Honey Farm in Rhinelander. I have two packages reserved again for this year. The owner drives to California each year and brings back a flatbed truck full of packaged bees. Probably not a great ride for the bees, but it has to be better than being sent through the mail! As I said, I wish I could find bees right here in WI, but the few beekeepers I heard of who had them are sold out and are taking orders for next year already! "

apis63, this is what you could do. when the packages you received are hived and built up/strong. requeen with a more desirable queen (local).  see if any
those local beeks that are sold out are selling queens.