Big bees and little bees

[yes2matt]

Just observing the landing board this afternoon, I noticed some workers coming back are big - almost as big as drones, and some bees are little.

I read in my book that the foragers are about 3 weeks old or older. So a this-year forager would have hatched second week of Jan. But there are probably some winter bees carried over from October.

Is the big one a winter bee and the little one a January bee?

[Perry]

Good question, and one I have no answer to?
Your logic seems to be good.

[vvand111]

I have observed and questioned the same thing. If Perry ,IDDEE, River or several others cannot answer that then I do not know what to say???

It must be universal and not unusual.

[Zweefer]

Just a further theory... are your frames the same?  I think I read natural (foundationless) cells are smaller, so the bees may be a bit smaller from those combs? If you have some natural comb along with the larger sized foundation would that account for it?

[Nugget Shooter]

Not sure this is the answer, but my bees in all hives are working the flow we have going and the nectar haulers look much bigger all blown up with a load than the bees hauling pollen in. Could this be what you are seeing? Some are so full they crash at or before landing....

[riverbee]

genetics.........your queens are probably 'open mated', (numerous drones), so you may also see a difference in coloration.

foragers like nugget shooter said, vs receiver bees, or wax workers.

cell size? i don't know much about this and is a topic of discussion and debate. perhaps in older comb?

[neillsayers]

Not sure this is the answer, but my bees in all hives are working the flow we have going and the nectar haulers look much bigger all blown up with a load than the bees hauling pollen in. Could this be what you are seeing? Some are so full they crash at or before landing....

If you've got a heavy nectar flow, the returning foragers will appear noticeably larger. Maybe?

[yes2matt]

This particular colony was a July split last year, and ya know, they're on about 70-30 foundation and natural drawn brood comb. So maybe that accounts for the difference. Tho looking at the cells you wouldn't guess.

I thought of the full/ empty thing, and there is definitely nectar coming in, and I've seen lots crash short in the grass, then recover for a minute and make a second attempt. The size difference I'm talking about though is head and thorax and everything.

I read somewhere, I think on scientificbeekeeping, that sometimes a younger house bee will be called up to forage if there's a flow and not a lot of house duties. So maybe the smaller bees are younger recruits.

Thanks everybody for your insights!

[Mikey N.C.]

Matt, how many drones an drone cells(capped) have you seen so far ?  3 beeks not far from me said their hives are full and 1 said he didn't see any

[riverbee]

"This particular colony was a July split last year, and ya know, they're on about 70-30 foundation and natural drawn brood comb. So maybe that accounts for the difference. Tho looking at the cells you wouldn't guess."...............
"The size difference I'm talking about though is head and thorax and everything.'

the comb would not account for the difference, just my HO.

1. genetics. queens mate with numerous drones. you may notice size, banding and color differences.

2. nutrition.  matt i re-read your first post. winter bee vs january bee.  just as queens are affected by nutritional needs (how well they are fed and cared for, so are her daughters. for example if a queen is not fed well she can be smaller.  perhaps either between genetics and bees coming out of winter months may have not had nutritional requirements met for normal growth.  ( no different in humans in many ways when a mother is carrying a child)

two good articles (randy oliver)  and a manual:

Fat Bees-Part 1

Fat Bees-Part 2

FAT BEES SKINNY BEES -a manual on honey bee nutrition for beekeepers

i have also attached the PDF Manual in the event the above link gets broken............
 

[yes2matt]

Matt, how many drones an drone cells(capped) have you seen so far ?  3 beeks not far from me said their hives are full and 1 said he didn't see any

My strongest has drones flying and probably a full frame (both sides) capped. My weakest doesn't have any.

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[yes2matt]

"This particular colony was a July split last year, and ya know, they're on about 70-30 foundation and natural drawn brood comb. So maybe that accounts for the difference. Tho looking at the cells you wouldn't guess."...............
"The size difference I'm talking about though is head and thorax and everything.'

the comb would not account for the difference, just my HO.

1. genetics. queens mate with numerous drones. you may notice size, banding and color differences.

2. nutrition.  matt i re-read your first post. winter bee vs january bee.  just as queens are affected by nutritional needs (how well they are fed and cared for, so are her daughters. for example if a queen is not fed well she can be smaller.  perhaps either between genetics and bees coming out of winter months may have not had nutritional requirements met for normal growth.  ( no different in humans in many ways when a mother is carrying a child)

two good articles (randy oliver)  and a manual:

Fat Bees-Part 1

Fat Bees-Part 2

FAT BEES SKINNY BEES -a manual on honey bee nutrition for beekeepers

i have also attached the PDF Manual in the event the above link gets broken............
 

I have this Fat Bees series and also his much longer series Understanding Colony Buildup... on my Kindle. Excellent. I think in the fat bees Randy suggested to consider winter bees almost a separate caste, because their body composition is so different. I guess that's why I thought to ask the question as I did.

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[Nugget Shooter]

These type educational threads have me coming here to learn.... 

[Zweefer]

These type educational threads have me coming here to learn.... 

Agreed. Rarely do I not pick up something of use here

[tecumseh]

my guess would be nutrition and the quality of the pollen collected and fed at the time the bees were born.  almost by definition there is a seasonal aspect to this...  fat bee, skinny bee is a very useful publication and if you look carefully towards the back side of the publication do pay special note to the protein content of some of the pollens < this does not tell all since you would really like to reduce this crude protein content to (first) digestable protein and then to the individual amino acid content of the pollen.  some are I would guess not much better than feeding sawdust.

just another misinformed no treatment beekeeper....

[yes2matt]

my guess would be nutrition and the quality of the pollen collected and fed at the time the bees were born.  almost by definition there is a seasonal aspect to this...  fat bee, skinny bee is a very useful publication and if you look carefully towards the back side of the publication do pay special note to the protein content of some of the pollens < this does not tell all since you would really like to reduce this crude protein content to (first) digestable protein and then to the individual amino acid content of the pollen.  some are I would guess not much better than feeding sawdust.

just another misinformed no treatment beekeeper....

Oooh. I'm just now following up on this.

https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/05-054.pdf

The youngest bees in my observation were probably fed fall stores, probably dandelion, maybe henbit. The winter bees probably got a good mix with significant portion of goldenrod.

Now I gotta go read some more.

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[yes2matt]

genetics.........your queens are probably 'open mated', (numerous drones), so you may also see a difference in coloration.

foragers like nugget shooter said, vs receiver bees, or wax workers.

cell size? i don't know much about this and is a topic of discussion and debate. perhaps in older comb?

I'm not ignoring the probability of genetics playing a big role.

Do you know if the Q uses up the sperm of one male at a time (maybe last-in-first-out?) Or if she is selective? Or maybe it's random?

[riverbee]

"I'm not ignoring the probability of genetics playing a big role.
Do you know if the Q uses up the sperm of one male at a time (maybe last-in-first-out?) Or if she is selective? Or maybe it's random?"

genetics does, both the queen's genetics and drones she mates with.

your question on the sperm stored.........this is a great question. i do not know the answer to this question. i am not a scientist,entomologist or queen breeder.

having said that,  it is my understanding from reading/studying on queen breeding/rearing that it is mixed. sperm goes into the queen's oviduct then to her spermatheca where it is stored for her lifetime. (the queen mates, sperm is mixed in her oviduct from the drones she mates with, goes to her spermatheca). also my understanding that a queen only stores about 1/2 of each drones sperm she mates with. so from my understanding, not one drones sperm at a time, not last in first out, selective or random, but  mixed. 

[CBT]

Learned a lot about how important pollen rules.

[Mikey N.C.]

Thanks for info, makes one think,  spring, summer or winter pollen.  What about pollen patties is that the crude tec. talking about ?