Dead Bees in front of hive

[Nugget Shooter]

Hi All, over the last couple days I have been seeing 20 to 40 or more dead and dying bees in front of our strongest hive, bees also being carried out. Not sure what to make of it and will be opening the hive in a couple hours to have a look though all was well last week. Is it possible some of our neighbors are using pesticides? The hive was treated for mites a couple months back and none of the dead or dying seem deformed in any way. Anything inside I should be looking for specifically? I mean a few dead bees is normal from time to time, but this seems excessive....



We have had a couple very warm days in the 105 range, but none of the other hives are showing dead out front except in normal numbers of one or two here and there. The hive in question is very strong and busy and this is entrance...



The one next door is not showing issues and nor are the others nearby.



Here in a video of hive in question this morning.

[Jen]

Hey Nug, Dang! The only two things I can sum up at this time is poisoning, or deformed wing virus. But you said these bees don't seem to be deformed...

I'm thinking too, that this hive could have been robbed and the bees defended themselves, and what bees remained are carrying out the collateral damage...

[Wandering Man]

Any chance your bees raided the sulfer-laced hive?

[efmesch]

I wouldn't discount the possibility of poisoninng, but would add, that when it's an isssue of poisoning, you usually can see dying bees crawling at the entrance or on the ground in front of the hive.  Than again, poisoning wouldn't generally be displayed by only one hive in a group.  So, bottom line, I wouldn't be certain about poisoning and would give a great deal of importance to the carefull examination of the insides of the hive.  Before you  open up, give a quick review of what to expect to see inside in the case of disease.

[Wandering Man]

  Than again, poisoning wouldn't generally be displayed by only one hive in a group. 

He says in another post that he may also be missing some queens.  Sounds like he's had a number of bad things happen since he eliminated the AHB hive.

There is also a drought going on: no rain for 7 weeks.  So I wonder if the bees might be kicking out the drones.

Lots of opportunity for bad fortune.  I'm sorry to see this Nugget, you were doing so well just a few weeks ago.

[tedh]

For what it's worth:  We have 5 colonies here at home, 3 very strong, 1 five frame nuc, and 1 deep walk away split.  After the fields around us were planted, I was seeing piles of dead bees outside of the 3 strong hives but not the 2 weaker colonies.  It went on for a week or so.  I could actually see bees come out, suffer convulsions, and die.  It has since stopped happening and inspecting the hives today they seem to be stronger (populationwise) than before.  Ted

[Nugget Shooter]

Thanks for the replies and I went inside a bit ago....

Healthy strong hive inside and honey in mediums one full the other 3 frames capped with uncapped nectar.

Lots of brood, capped brood, eggs and larva with 4 frames of capped honey and uncapped in second deep with lots of pollen.

No signs of robbing, disease, nor mite problems (did not test) but none visible or on SBB pull out.

Puzzled and nothing problem wise other than some burr comb at least to my untrained eyes 

I don't see any new bodies and most were gone already having been eaten by lizards, Thrashers, and Cactus Wrens that visit daily for dead bees. Guess I will see what tomorrow brings and I cleaned up in front of the hive so any dead will be new ones.

Wandering Man, no they have not been around the equipment treated with SO2, but the SO2 that is toxic is only present when sulfur is burned.

Active ingredient: Sulfur
Pesticide type: fungicide
See example products below.
Potential Hazard1 to
Water quality2
(aquatic wildlife)
Natural enemies
(beneficials)
Honey bees3
People and Other Mammals
Acute4
Long Term5

L

LH

L

VL
Not listed
Acute Toxicity to People and Other Mammals4
Toxicity rating: Not Acutely Toxic
Long-Term Toxicity to People and Other Mammals5
On US EPA list: Not listed;
On CA Proposition 65 list: Not listed
Water Quality Rating2
Absorbed runoff toxicity risk to fish rating: Low
Solution runoff toxicity risk to fish rating: Low
Source: UC IPM WaterTox Database (originally NRCS Pesticide Properties Database)
Impact on Natural Enemies
Overall toxicity rating: Low To High
Specific impacts: predatory mites (Low To High), parasitoids (High), general predators (Low To Moderate)
Impact on Honey Bees3
Toxicity category: IV - Apply at any time with reasonable safety to bees
Pests for which it is mentioned in Pest Notes
Apple and Pear Scab • Powdery Mildew on Fruits and Berries • Powdery Mildew on Ornamentals • Powdery Mildew on Vegetables • Roses in the Garden and Landscape: Diseases and Abiotic Disorders • powdery mildew • Spider Mites
Application Tips
As a fungicide, sulfur protects only healthy plant tissues and must be applied before the fungi arrive and begin the infection process. Water-soluble, sprayable sulfur formulations are easiest to apply. Some excellent garden products are formulated with soap. Sulfur can also be applied as a dust, but this can irritate 90 for some crops. Dust formulations are most effective against mites.
Precautions and Safety Equipment should be followed.

So not sure of anything, but will look in the morning....

[Some Day]

I have a theory that larger hives have more bees that are approaching their last days of life.  I think they have about a 42 day life expectancy during honey flows.  If you have only .001 percent of the hive die daily, a small 30000 bee hive will have 30 bees die.  A larger hive of say 60000 will have twice as many dead bees or 60 bees laying out on the ground. You still have 59,940 bees left in the hive.

But, what do I know?  I am just struggling along trying to harvest a couple of pounds of honey.

[Jen]

That's some pretty good bee math there Some Day! Makes a lot of sense.

[Barbarian]

A shot in the dark which is probably miles off.

Are there any crops in flying range ? Some crops may be from dressed seed. There is something called gutation. An insecticide passes through the plant and in some conditions the plant "sweats" moisture containing the systemic insecticide and bees gather the liquid.

[Nugget Shooter]

I have a theory that larger hives have more bees that are approaching their last days of life.  I think they have about a 42 day life expectancy during honey flows.  If you have only .001 percent of the hive die daily, a small 30000 bee hive will have 30 bees die.  A larger hive of say 60000 will have twice as many dead bees or 60 bees laying out on the ground. You still have 59,940 bees left in the hive.

But, what do I know?  I am just struggling along trying to harvest a couple of pounds of honey.

I was wondering about this myself as this is a huge population of bees, much larger than our others and the dead and dying look mostly like older bees and today it was much the same, but with a couple drones in the mix. There are no deformed wings in the dead and dying either and very few with tongues out after death. None of the dead are larva or pupa either.... Other than the dead the hive seems to be normal to my eyes with lots of pollen as well as nectar coming in. Just seems odd they are not simply dead and some are weak and dying on the ground trying to walk or fly with no obvious issues.

Barbarian, we have no farming near us here other than what folks plant in their home gardens and only this one very large hive is showing this die off. So hopefully not something like you mention.....

Perhaps there is not enough nectar coming in with the 8 weeks of no rain? There seems plenty of stores in this hive could hunger even be a remote issue? Perhaps try a feeder jar inside to see if they use the syrup? Heck I just don't know not having years of experience to guide me through these type issues and often just not sure it is even an issue 

[Nugget Shooter]

Some Day's post sent me off once again researching and I came upon this as well as other information confirming that he just may be on the right track in his theory...

Why are my bees dying in the grass?

It seems we become more aware of dead bees in the fall. I think this is partially due to the environment—the grass is not so lush so they are clearly visible and fewer scavengers are around to pick up the dead bodies. We are also more concerned about the health of our bees because the winter looms ahead, so the sight of dead ones makes us anxious. Add to that an accumulation of dead drones near the hive and the number of bodies seems unreal.

Here is a sample question:

Why are there a dozen worker bees, with pollen-laden baskets, dying in the grass in front of the hive? They acted like they were too tired to make it into the hive. Most bees were flying into the hive, but some were just falling into the grass in front of the hive and staying there. They are dying. It was the very end of the day. Maybe the grass was wet or the temperature suddenly got too cold?

The thing to remember is that foraging bees work themselves to death. They just keep foraging until they drop, and that moment may occur out in the field, over your patio (where I always see them), or right in front of the hive. Some die in the hive, some on their way out the door, some take off and fall flat, and some keel over from the sheer weight of the pollen they just collected. Life is not easy for a honey bee.

But here is something to put the numbers in perspective. According to Bees of the World (O’Toole & Raw, 1999) a single honey bee colony will lose about 1000 foraging workers per day in the summer. This makes sense when you realize a queen may lay nearly 2000 eggs in a day. A great number of young is required to replace all those deaths in the field and to expand the hive population as well.

But 1000 dead bees makes a big pile, and remember, that number is per day. Multiply that by the days in a week or month. And how many hives do you have? Two? Three? Twenty-five? What you get is truckloads of natural fertilizer, pre-spread for your convenience.

So relax. As you can see, it is not at all surprising to see dead bees near the hive or anywhere else. And, as I mentioned earlier, the drones are evicted in the fall as well, which increases the body count even further. Pick out a few for a closer look. Although some will be young, most will look worn with bald spots and tattered wings—it’s all part of the natural process.

Rusty
HoneyBeeSuite

So perhaps it is just the fact this hive is so large and the bees working so hard as there is an amazing amount of traffic all day to and fro that it is natural die off and because we have essentially bare ground around the hives I can simply see them well? Just seemed to happen so suddenly (4 days ago) that it really got my attention. Still watching closely during this new learning experience and will update if there are changes.

Do any of you others with large populations see this in front of your hives?

[Nugget Shooter]

Today just 10 or so and perhaps this was normal and a friend said he saw the same and he thought is was due to the very high winds we have had over the last several days with 50mph gusts at times making them work much harder to forage. Perhaps..... I am just glad it was not something more serious and darn this learning curve can make for some anxious moments and utter confusion 

Dang Bees 

[Some Day]

Do any of you others with large populations see this in front of your hives?

We had a period of about 5 days in a row of colder rainy weather and I noticed a larger pile of dead bees by the entrance.  I think it was due to the non flying weather and the workers that would have normally tried to make one last flight and dying before they made it home.  During this rainy weather the girls were staying home and dying in the hive to then be carted out by the undertaker bees.

[Lburou]

Nugget shooter, I had one hive with about a quart of dead bees appeared on the ground in front of it and no dead bees in front of the other hives.   I never did figure whether it was mites, insecticide or something else...Its anyone's guess. 

[robo]

Did you see any dark shiny bees when you did the inspection?

[Nugget Shooter]

Did you see any dark shiny bees when you did the inspection?

No Robo I did not, it is an Italian colony and would spot something like tat I think, but for educational purposes what would that possibly indicate ?

[Some Day]

Did you see any dark shiny bees when you did the inspection?

No Robo I did not, it is an Italian colony and would spot something like tat I think, but for educational purposes what would that possibly indicate ?

I am going to guess that it is a sign of old worn out bees.  Kind of like a bald headed bee keeper, not that I would know.

[robo]

Did you see any dark shiny bees when you did the inspection?

No Robo I did not, it is an Italian colony and would spot something like tat I think, but for educational purposes what would that possibly indicate ?

Chronic bee paralysis virus - I know some beekeepers that had an outbreak last year.  Many dead bees in front of the hive.   For the most part, a healthy hive should not have a noticeable amount of dead bees in front of it compared to your other hives.   Healthy hives have the older bees flying off to die and reduce the strain on the colony.