????????

[Mikey N.C.]

I have 4 hives that were swarms , put in 10 f deeps.  They filled them out , at the end of our flow. I added another deep to all with new foundation, inner cover quart jars , empty 10 frame deep boxes and top cover. I did inspection Monday and they have not touched new frames. Weather is getting cooler at night, this weekend down to high 30's. These hives are not as strong as i think they need to be.
? Can I go ahead and reduce all empty space add shims and sugar cake for winter ? Is their a time when it's to early to add cakes?
I'm concerned of all that empty space and cold nights on weak hives.
Thanks

[eltalia]

Knowing you guys all do this as virtually a mantra - load bees to box+fill
with frames (often foundationless)+ add super - I do only offer there is that
acute case of ambition overpowering reality.
For mine, we - as a nationwide 'thing' - run single FD broodchambers to
"super up"  gradually, maybe three frames at a time. And use "blockers" to
isolate voids - in any scenario of colony building or redundancy.
But what do I know... location is everything, for some, yeah?

Take the colony back to a single box and store what is excess realestate.
Lucks for the Winter... an' a merry Xmas for you an' yorn

Bill

[Mikey N.C.]

Elt.
Whats a JD brood chamber ,excuse me i don't know. Understand your supering slowly 3 at a time using void insulation blocks on out side .

[eltalia]

Elt.
Whats a JD brood chamber ,excuse me i don't know. Understand your supering slowly 3 at a time using void insulation blocks on out side .

Okay Mike, sorry... I did think I had run across you elsewhere as an "experienced beek", mybad --- as
youse guys say :-)

"FD broodchamber" is a full depth Langstroth box, with wired in foundation.
It is a 10 frame box design, but knowing BKs here use 9frames in the config
which allows some leeway for spacing of the broodnest frames among the stores frames. A downside
is the burrcomb build towards the outer frames
so the broodchamber gets a close inspection every other month or so, depending on locale.

And yes, the void blocks can be polyfoam in starter colonies and once at CM (critical mass) the blocks
 are replaced by bee-tight divider boards which are then moved over as frames are added.
Commercial BKs would never use foundationless here, yet that has it's place with some cottage industry
types selling "comb honey" and us newly moulded "nature phreeks" switching to TopBar style designs.
I tried foundationless (wholly) in the broodchamber these past months and found the drone cell
randomness not efficient - in my view - so I won't be doing that again, restricting foundationless to frames
 #1+#8+#9 in future.

Clear now? ;-)

Bill

[Mikey N.C.]

My Q was is it to early to add cake ?

[riverbee]

mikey, later in the season to add a 2nd deep with foundation is tough, the bees won't draw the frames out no matter how much you feed them.

if i understand what you are saying, this is what i would do; reduce to one deep, add your shim and feed. if you think they are not strong enough, combine if need be, and combine equally and do the same, all the bees go in one single deep, shim, and add the sugar/fondant.  is it too early to add sugar cakes? if you can no longer feed syrup, sugar/fondant works.  i will be placing sugar bricks on this weekend, just because we have plummeted in temps and i need to add the shim. want to do it before we hit freezing temps.

if you have 4 hives that are weak, maybe combine into 2.  what are you seeing for bee population on the frames? how many frames do they cover?

[Mikey N.C.]

Rb,
Each boxes has about 4 or 5 frames of bees, but Q's are slow, but i seen every Q

[Green bee]

 A wise beekeeper told me just the other day ( it’s better to go into winter with two strong hives than four weak ones) then split them back out in the spring. It’s a tough decision to make for sure.

[riverbee]

"A wise beekeeper told me just the other day ( it’s better to go into winter with two strong hives than four weak ones) then split them back out in the spring. It’s a tough decision to make for sure."

i wonder who that wise beekeeper is?...........   he's right green bee. and yes, you can split them back out in the spring.

mikey, the queens are going to be slow.......not laying. not sure i would risk going into winter with 4 weak hives in a single 10 frame deep, not in my climate. i'd be inclined to combine as green bee suggested, to combine into two, better chance of survival and can split in the spring.

hard decision for you, let us know what you decide! 4 or 5 frames of bees? if you think they are weak i would combine.......that's just me.

[eltalia]

My Q was is it to early to add cake ?

...answered in my first response Mike;
"I do only offer there is that acute case of ambition overpowering reality."

Your response read you were clear on my advice, just confused with my use
of terminology. All good?

Bill

[Lburou]

Combining would be the simplest and most sound action in my view.  In your mild winters, you could also house those four hives in five or six frame NUC boxes. In either case, provide sugar bricks to tide them over through winter and spring. 

[Mikey N.C.]

If i was combine which Q's do i axe, they're all laying the same ?

[Jen]

Hi Mikey, I like Lee's idea of the nucs. And that's because I have a hard time axing queens, especially when they are great layers. And even if they are not great layers, I'm not into beekeeping for a huge gain, I just like to have some hives in my yard and let the bees do their bee thing 

These are my nucs that I will care for over the winter. This is my second winter of nucs. Last year I had 5 nucs and lost one to freezing. If I would have pushed those five nucs together I belive the one nuc may have survived.

This Fall I simply kept putting on more boxes because if I split into more nucs I wasn't sure if there were enough drones out there for a good mating with new hatched queens. So I just built them upward.

All three of these nucs are full of bees and have a great chance of wintering well. I will push these nucs together soon, and feed all winter long with sugar cakes.

[Lburou]

If i was combine which Q's do i axe, they're all laying the same ?

I don't know.  The bees will work it out. 

[Mikey N.C.]

So combine and let bees kill Q ?

[Jen]

Hey Mikey, did ya read my post above Lee's? I don't like to kill queens. I like nucs so every queen can have a home. Just me 

[Lburou]

If you combine two queenright hives, the bees will settle it.  If you don't have a reason to prefer one queen over the other,  the bees may...either way they will take care of it.  I do not, however, know if this action will threaten or harm the remaining queen. 

[Some Day]

Why not combine the hives with a Queen excluder between the top and bottom box?  Would this not allow the bees to choose a queen with out a Royal battle which may result in the death of one queen and injury to the survivor?  Perhaps by spring time both queens will have survived?  Add the sugar bricks to help with feed.

Just wondering if it would work.

[Jen]

Some Day, I like that idea too. I've been doing more experimenting the last couple years with some nice success.

How about combining two hives with a queen excluder and a piece of newspaper between the two boxes? This way the bees could adjust a little slower to the two pheromones that the queens will each contribute. And just leave them like that all winter, then separate in the spring. Would make a gentler introduction for both hives 

[eltalia]

(edit)
 I do not, however, know if this action will threaten or harm the remaining queen. 

Precisely. No one can know, and the risk under even adverse conditions of a swarm setting off is one possible outcome. For sure the bees will decide the outcome of all combine suggestions thusfar put, I struggle with sanctioning that direction as again the assumption made is one of weak colonies existing. Come about as Mikey.NC is prolific on questions yet short on description/information;
"each boxes has about 4 or 5 frames of bees, but Q's are slow, but i seen every Q"
AND
"I have 4 hives that were swarms , put in 10 f deeps.  They filled them out"
How could anyone know these colonies are weak from such little obscure input? What are bee numbers on those 5 frames? What is the actual reality of "filled them out" issit drawn comb, worked comb and/or stores comb?
At least one pix or a fuller description using frame numbers would help Mikey.NC to help himself. It is not me to post such critique but at 904 posts and "senior level" Mikey.NC has to know how forums work in soliciting the best answers... yeh?

Lee's suggestion to knock the colonies back into nuc form is a certain way forward as long as Mikey.NC knows to pack the boxes with stores at the right time, removing brood frames. However any action is a local call, and cannot be rely on forum put advice when such little effort is made by the OP to address the local scene.

"reap what is sown" applies here, methinks.

Bill