Treatment bees or Treatment free ?

[Mikey N.C.]

I know this is a much debated topic.  Me 3 years in, 1st year 2 hives of nucs from Georgia,  bees were going gang busters (feed,feed &feed) didn't want to treat well bees went from strong to dead. So the more I read about bees , it's almost impossible with strains coming from the southern U.S.
That's when i started talking to iddee and decided i'll try Wayne's bees. So 2nd year went to beez needz and picked up 6 nucs of Wayne's
( Great people, Keith an iddee and everyone there) 2 for me,2 each for some newbeek friends. Well all did great , then fall came and mine died out. The other 4 made it through last winter and this winter, and they've made increases with those hives by making splits , letting them make Q's. We are all friends and thought that 3 heads are better than 1, so we're all using the same methods and inspect boxes together.  So last spring i set 1 swarm trap at my house and caught a swarm,  also purchased 2 Ga. nucs . I kept the swarm in a 5 nuc box , then added another 5, once they built up ,dropped them in a 10 deep then as they built ,added med. super with new foundation and they drew it out with new comb.
And are looking strong now.
I decided to buy the varrox vap. and treat the Ga. bees. The Ga. nucs i put in to 10 deeps with other 5 frames of drawn comb( mistake) Q's laying so good (was in Florida for 2 weeks)  got home an Ga. bees with no comb to draw were ready to swarm. Caught all swarms out of 2 nucs from Ga. ended up with 8 hives , with laying Q's doing very good, and having to buy extra frames an foundations
(make my boxes) started OAV treatments in August (3 treatments. 1 -12-21) did sugar roll before 7 ct. 10 ct. 9 ct.  Don't use IPM boards or oil trays, so don't know drop count. Needless to say 8 hives died out with lots of honey in original nucs(10 deeps) . My question is do i make my yard a 5 over 5 nuc yard, with swarms if i can catch 2 more this year and slowly let them build and keep an eye on them an give them room to prevent swarming, and not adding purchased Q's. And what ever accessed bees i have, help out other beeks ?

[Chip Euliss]

Check your mite loads and treat when you have too many.  For me, I like to see infestation rates less than 5%.  Oxalic acid vaporization works well but rotate with other treatments.  I've been using formic (MAQS) in spring and oxalic in late summer/fall and it's working well so far.  Mites get all bees and mites carry diseases.  In summer when the bees are going gangbusters, there are lots of drones that mites prefer but that all changes come fall.  I'm convinced that if you focus on keeping your bees well nourished and as free of mites as possible, you'll do well.

[Lburou]

...Oxalic acid vaporization works well but rotate with other treatments...

Chip, what does the Scientist within you say about the new OA application method in development with glycerin that is left in the hive for weeks?

[riverbee]

this was mikey's question....
just trying to follow along here and don't disagree with what chip said!
i can't answer mikey's question.....

"My question is do i make my yard a 5 over 5 nuc yard, with swarms if i can catch 2 more this year and slowly let them build and keep an eye on them an give them room to prevent swarming, and not adding purchased Q's. And what ever accessed bees i have, help out other beeks ?"

[Mikey N.C.]

River,
What i was asking is that I've not been successful wintering 10 deeps. This year if i keep 5 over 5 nucs busting at the seems.  Would it be easier to overwinter , so I can expand the next year ?

[Chip Euliss]

...Oxalic acid vaporization works well but rotate with other treatments...

Chip, what does the Scientist within you say about the new OA application method in development with glycerin that is left in the hive for weeks?

Lee, it tells me that the slow release method holds some promise.  I don't understand the exact chemistry but I suspect the glycerin may reduce the rate at which the OA degrades as well as making it available over a brood cycle +.   Last fall, I downloaded the original research article and used their dosage to treat a handfull of hives and I had mite drop (dead ones) for about 3 weeks so it appeared to cover the brood cycle fairly well.  I even had a local printing shop make cardboard strips for me but I layed them between the 2 deep boxes rather than between frames of brood as in the original article  That method isn't yet approved so I won't integrate it into my management until it is but the research says it works over the brood cycle and my small test didn't suggest otherwise--seems promising.  The problem with the other methods of mite control using oxalic is that it's a contact killer that only gets phoretic mites.  The dribble can only be used a couple of times before you start injuring bees whereas the vaporization method doesn't seem to harm the bees but you have to vaporize repeatedly or when the hive is broodless (rare and may not coincide with periods of opportunity or risk in hives with heavy mite loads).  When the glycerin method gets approved, I would add it to hives immediately after pulling the honey supers in late summer.  Once I have them yarded to to load on a semi-truck, I'd still want to check mite loads and vaporize, if needed.

[Lburou]

Thanks Chip, I appreciate your response.  I just hark back to prophylactic use of antibiotics of the past and the caution about continual exposure to a substance building resistance in the target organism. 

Jamie Ellis urges us to use antibiotics that are only in the hive a few days to limit exposure to the antibiotics in the hope this will extend effectiveness of the antibiotic against AFB, etc..  Now, this shop towel OA method leaves OA in the hive for months.  It is a mixed message...I bought in to the brief exposure of organic acaricides and feel caution is warranted.  Mites may never gain tolerance to OA or Formic, but we should be smart when we change over to the shop towel method. Am I too simplistic here Chip?

Mikey, the 5 over 5 method is a good way to do it.  Michael Palmer does it and shows it in several videos and talks.  He uses a special made resource hive to overwinter 5 over 5 colonies.  Here is one of those videos:

[Chip Euliss]

Thanks Chip, I appreciate your response.  I just hark back to prophylactic use of antibiotics of the past and the caution about continual exposure to a substance building resistance in the target organism. 

Jamie Ellis urges us to use antibiotics that are only in the hive a few days to limit exposure to the antibiotics in the hope this will extend effectiveness of the antibiotic against AFB, etc..  Now, this shop towel OA method leaves OA in the hive for months.  It is a mixed message...I bought in to the brief exposure of organic acaricides and feel caution is warranted.  Mites may never gain tolerance to OA or Formic, but we should be smart when we change over to the shop towel method. Am I too simplistic here Chip?

Mikey, the 5 over 5 method is a good way to do it.  Michael Palmer does it and shows it in several videos and talks.  He uses a special made resource hive to overwinter 5 over 5 colonies.  Here is one of those videos:

I agree Lee and I don't think anyone really understands resistance in organic acids like formic and oxalic.  We do know a lot about synthetic chemicals that were developed to target specific physiological functions, etc. to kill the target organism.  The claim for formic is that it has been in use for a long time now with no signs of resistance but that's at odds with natural selection as you mention; but it all depends on how it works and we don't really understand the mechanism.  I'm amazed that we haven't looked more critically at how it works but I do know that we need to understand that mechanism before we can predict resistance.  Some things can kill and there is no selective defense (e.g., drowning) but who knows with these acids?   My plan is to rotate treatments as that's about the best we can do without better information.  In the few hives I tested last fall, the cardboard was pretty much gone after 3 weeks so the exposure wasn't extremely long.  When I vaporize, I repeat treatments to cover an entire brood cycle so the bees do get a good dose of vapors and the crystals that form inside the hive likely take a bit of time to dissipate too.  I think only one hive had a trace of the cardboard but I removed it when I checked on them and just before I gave them a patty of pollen sub.  I'm always amazed at how quickly bees shred paper and remove it from their hives.  In California this year, my wife and I put 2 lbs of sub on top of a piece of wax paper (deli paper from Costco).  It rained that night and we couldn't get to the bees for a few days (off to the California wineries!).  When we came back, you wouldn't believe how much of the wax paper was shredded and piled up just outside the hive entrances.

[riverbee]

hey guys, some great info posted......thank you chip and lee!

just a little sidetracking of mikeys thread and an answer to his question and clarification.........

"What i was asking is that I've not been successful wintering 10 deeps. This year if i keep 5 over 5 nucs busting at the seems.  Would it be easier to overwinter , so I can expand the next year ?"

reading mikey's original post to start the thread, my first thought was mites/mite related problems from mikey's description of losing 8 of 10 deep hives.
i have not kept 5 over 5 nucs, and lee provided a great link to how michael palmer does 5 over 5's.

i think others here have overwintered 5 over 5's........jen? perry?
anyone with thoughts or experience on this ?

[Chip Euliss]

A little difficult to follow but I gather your bees died and you're whether a 5 by 5 configuration would help? You also mention you treated with oxalic acid vapors so I think that's part of your question too.  Given your location in NC, wintering bees should pose no problem provided they have ample food reserves since your climate isn't severe.  Probably didn't seem like it this year with the crazy storm eh Mikey?  Anyway, you're not too far from where I grew up and where my family still resides (Hickory, NC); probably even a little warmer than on the mountain side of the Piedmont.  I'd wager that mites were your problem and the reason you lost your hives based on the numbers you provided.  From your post, you said you just started treating and this last August you used oxalic acid vaporization but you only treated 3 times (August 1, 12 and 21)--that may be a little light, especially if your mite loads were high.  I treat mine every 5 days and do that 5 times so I cover the brood cycle plus a few days.  I'd recommend increasing the frequency (5 times 4 days apart or 4 times 5 days apart).  Your counts from sugar roll (dusting I assume) were 7, 10 and 9.  Here' Id guess (?) you had a sample of 100 bees(?); if so, you had infestation rates of 7, 10 and 9%.  Some folks would be ok with that but I typically see only 1-3 % after I treat.  I'd also recommend treating in spring with an alternate miticide.  I've been using Formic acid in spring with good results but there are many other options too.  One last consideration is the intensity of the vapors from your vaporizer.  Vaporization is just starting to develop a following among commercial beekeepers and we're coming to recognize that the nice blue heavy vapor does the best job killing mites.  I started with a Lega vaporizer and I had to crank the thing all the way up (temp) to get the right "smoke".  It's a bit of an enigma but you may have the thermostat set higher than recommended but with repeated fillings and the boiling off of water, the actual temperature of the oxalic acid is likely lower than the setting on the thermostat.

I'd be happy to post a video of what I deem to be the right intensity of vapor ("smoke") but I'm not sure I know how to add it to this site.  If you're interested, I'd be more than happy to text or email you a short video clip.  Good Luck!

[riverbee]

chip,
would this be a you tube video?
if so, on you tube, go to the 'share' button. it brings up a link, just copy and paste that link into your reply here on the forum.

[yes2matt]

River,
What i was asking is that I've not been successful wintering 10 deeps. This year if i keep 5 over 5 nucs busting at the seems.  Would it be easier to overwinter , so I can expand the next year ?

I'm in a real similar situation, and my opinion is you should set your box to fit the cluster. If you choose not to treat for mite infestation, the bees will be weak toward the middle of summer going into our dearth, and then between robbing, SHB, and wax moths, a good colony can get taken down in a hurry. One defense is to keep them in a cavity that is small enough for them to defend.

For me, that meant over wintering two colonies in five-frame nuc boxes this past year, because that was the biggest space they could handle. They made it just fine.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

[Chip Euliss]

chip,
would this be a you tube video?
if so, on you tube, go to the 'share' button. it brings up a link, just copy and paste that link into your reply here on the forum.

River, it's just one my wife took with an iPhone.  Not even my bees but a friends who shared half a semi-truck haul with me last fall.  He treated with Formic (MAQS) last fall and then the BIP folks (he is one of their customers) checked his hives and his mite were still too high, so he hit them with the recommended number of amatraz strips (Apivar strips?  the legal one, can't remember the name--getting OLDer) just before they shipped to CA.  He and I took care of the bees in CA in January and his loads we checked his loads and they were still too high so we decided to vaporize them to at least knock down the phoretic mites since not much brood.  He and his wife had to leave early to avoid an ice storm so we (my better half and I) vaporized them and she took a short video to send him.  I know how to text or email the video but don't know how to get it here.  I'd be happy to email it if you want to figure out how to get it here.  Just pm me your email or cell and I'll get it to you.

[riverbee]

thanks chip!
okay, you can upload your wife's video to you tube and then post here. i would love to see the video!
it doesn't take long to do so. just sign up for a you tube account, and upload the video.

otherwise, you can send it to me, i can upload to my own you tube account and post here for you.

i will send you a pm chip........sorry mikey! back to your thread!

[riverbee]

i have uploaded chip's video on oav treatment from chip's earlier post's describing the amount or intensity of 'smoke'  or 'vapor' with oav treatment.

mikey not trying to hijack your thread.......

chip feel free free to comment, and mikey please add any questions you may have relative to your thread question.

[Chip Euliss]

River, thanks for all the work getting the video from my phone to Mikey's post.  The older I get, the more challenged I become

Mikey, the video shows the intensity of Oxalic acid vapors i mentioned in my response to your post.  It's about the strength that commercial beekeepers try to achieve when they treat their hives.  Intensities less than this do a poor job killing mites.  It takes some practice so there's a bit of "art" involved, not just setting a thermostat and letting it rip.  In my vaporizer, shaking the tip knocks off crystals clinging to the inside of the vaporizer and makes a more intense vapor.  It takes about 10-15 seconds to treat a hive and what you're looking for (other than "smoke" at the intensity shown in the video, is for visible vapors escaping from the lid.  You have to look fairly closely at the video to see it.  These are not my hives; mine are the colorful ones in the background and they aren't set up well for vaporization.  The hives being treated are a friends who previously treated with Formic and then Apivar strips last fall but still failed to drop his mite loads below an acceptable level.  You will see a lot of vapor escaping in the entrances of the hives being treated (except the first) because his entrance reducers were too small.  When using this method of OAV, you need the opening left by the entrance reducer to be just a little wider than the head on the vaporizer.  Otherwise, you loose vapor as shown in hives 2 and 3 so you have to put vapor in longer to get an adequate treatment.

Hopes this helps.