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Author Topic: Are these black bees?  (Read 6986 times)

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Offline Bakersdozen

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Are these black bees?
« on: October 30, 2014, 05:18:02 pm »


Are these those black bees that I have read about on this forum?  They found this feeder pail.  Last week they tried to rob out on of my hives.  They aren't aggressive towards me, but are a little territorial around this feeder pail. 
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Offline lazy shooter

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Re: Are these black bees?
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2014, 08:04:22 pm »
I can't tell from your photo.  Bees have two sets of wings and their eyes are more on the side of their heads than similar looking flies.  Also, bees wings fold onto their backs and don't hang over on the sides.  From your photo, I can't verify any of the above, but they could certainly be honey bees.  How's that for an answer?  It's moments like this that I think maybe I should have been in politics.  NOT!
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Re: Are these black bees?
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2014, 08:44:45 pm »
there are some black honeybees around this area, not many, maybe 15% of the feral colony with the most.  There was another feral I never caught that was mostly black bees, someone on a forum suggested german black bees the way they chased me and a man from the  business they were at off.
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Offline Jen

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Re: Are these black bees?
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2014, 09:06:05 pm »
Hi Baker, It would help if you crop this pic to make it as close and clear as you can. But from what i can tell, these bees look like the 'black butt' bee I have in my hives. they are one of the majorities to be sure, but they haven't presented a problem and they do carry their load in pollen  :)



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Gypsi

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Re: Are these black bees?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2014, 10:58:29 pm »
Today's cutout bees were like your "black butt" bees Jen.  Carnolian maybe?  nope, I googled, and those black bees I've been seeing that are mostly black appear to be carnolian.
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Offline Jen

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Re: Are these black bees?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2014, 11:06:44 pm »
I have seen a couple of bees in the hive that have a full black abdomen. Last Fall I found some deformed wing bees in the grass as well. Formic Acid -MAQS- took care of that mite invasion.

I looks like the pic Bakers posted has the bees with the half black butt like mine
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Offline tecumseh

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Re: Are these black bees?
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2014, 06:51:19 am »
my best guess is no.  I see just a bit of yellow on one of the bees in the picture and so my guess is that these are 'old italian bees' that have lost their fuzz < older bees are also the most likely participants in any robbing activity.  this is quite often a pretty likely answer to this sort of question and to have some understanding of why this is true you only need review what Brother Adams said about the Isle of Wright disease in England at the turn of the 1900's.  there is supposedly some almost insignificant 'german black bee' dna (apis m.m.) in the population of bees in the US. 
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Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Are these black bees?
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2014, 09:26:26 am »
My apologies for not taking a closer picture

I don't know if this is any better.  As Tec says, they are probably older foragers because there are no fuzzy hairs on them.
A cold front moved in last night, so I doubt that I will see them again today.
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Offline brooksbeefarm

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Re: Are these black bees?
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2014, 10:46:52 am »
I like the Carni. bees best for my area, the blacker the queen is the better for me, except the German Black bee, i had all of them that i want. Baker12, like tec said i see some yellow on them also and they look bigger than what i remember of the German black. As black as those are i would say they have some German black genetics trying to come back :o. As mean as they were i wouldn't bet that they won't. ;D Jack
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Offline barry42001

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Re: Are these black bees?
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2014, 11:41:15 am »
Yeah Italian or Italian hybrids, like tec said. Seen German bees, uniformly black/ grey/ black. Quite miserable to work with, boiling out all over,  very nervous, stinging readily....what I want in my bees lol. :-)
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Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Are these black bees?
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2014, 06:39:26 pm »
These weren't aggressive towards me.  But there was some fighting with my recognizable Italians.  The bees and I were on neutral territory.
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Offline Jen

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Re: Are these black bees?
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2014, 07:03:54 pm »
Is it me... or is the second pic black and white?
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Offline ledifni

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Re: Are these black bees?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2014, 10:14:15 am »
I can't say for sure, but I don't think those are honey bees.  Even the "black" honey bees still have gold hairs around their thorax and those look solid black.  There are some bees (carpenter bees, some kinds of small wasps, stingless bees) that can be uniformly black and look a lot like honey bees otherwise, so I'd guess something like that.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: Are these black bees?
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2014, 11:20:24 am »
I wish I had taken pics of the black bees I have in my hives..  They are quite noticeable, and all black. Smaller than the average bee..   They look very out of place.. I Pointed them out to Ted the last time he was up.. It may be spring before I can get a picture of them now..  They are VERY reminiscent of the German black bee.. And in truth, The genetics of the German black bee IS part of most of our mutts, so a throwback should not be a surprise, even many throwbacks popping up when genetics align just right.
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Offline tecumseh

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Re: Are these black bees?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2014, 07:02:12 am »
LazyBkpr is of course quite correct.  Prior to the time of modern day beekeeping the German Black Bee (which according to my of old ABC/XYZ was actually Dutch and not German).  Apis mellifera mellifera was the dominate breed here so the base of most of the bee stock is first and foremost Apis m.m. for sure.  Brother Adams suggested in his writing that this northern european bee did not do so well with the introduction of the trachael mite (referencing what is now called the Isle of Wright Disease).  Based on his reference you would expect that in the purer forms apis m.m. is likely quite rare here after the introduction of the trachael mite in the 1980's.  This does not mean some mixed breed out layers which highly resemble apis m.m. are not still out there in some small numbers.... but they are likely never to be as common as they were in the days when folks like myself and Jack began keeping bees.  My original mentor had these and I will tell you straight out that they were nasty little buggers that were doing their very best to convince a very young fellow that he did not want to be a beekeeper.  When I did first obtain my own bees I did have the good sense to buy Italian bees.   
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Offline brooksbeefarm

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Re: Are these black bees?
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2014, 09:48:12 am »
Tec, like i stated before i started with the Midnight breed, and i have been racking my brain where and what breed of bee that i bought that were a light golden color,( almost a tan color, with no stripes). They were gentle and easy to work with, a little larger than the Italian bee, and was one of the best honey producers i ever had. I don't remember hearing of the Cardovan(sp?) bee back then. Do you or any of the forum members, remember them or know what breed they were or are? This was back in the late sixties or early 70's. Jack
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Offline iddee

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Re: Are these black bees?
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2014, 12:20:51 pm »
Was it the Caucasian? They were a yellow color and about the gentlest bees I have ever worked.
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Offline brooksbeefarm

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Re: Are these black bees?
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2014, 12:38:45 pm »
It could of been iddee i remember having them back then, they were gentle and good honey producers, BUT, propolized everything in the hive. I would tear frames apart trying to do an inspection. I've had so many different breeds of bees that i don't remember, but i thought the Caucasian were light gray with black strips? Jack
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Offline Jen

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Re: Are these black bees?
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2014, 12:40:25 pm »
I'm trying to find a pic of my caramel colored bees that have eyes to match. They are beautiful bees to watch and they have a great temprament!
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Offline iddee

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Re: Are these black bees?
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2014, 12:51:44 pm »
""very great user of propolis""

""the great use of propolis may be seen as undesirable as it makes hive management more difficult. Frames and hive boxes are glued together more substantially.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_honey_bee
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