Author Topic: Looking for answers  (Read 11046 times)

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Offline Bakersdozen

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Looking for answers
« on: December 15, 2014, 12:01:14 pm »
For the first time, I lost a hive during the winter.  Back in November, when we had a sudden cold snap that lasted over a week, I lost one of my hives in my back yard.  I still have two others that are doing fine.  I am trying to figure out what happened.  I want to say they starved (oh the horror), but not sure.
1. Found thousands and thousands of dead bees on the bottom board and a few dead still on frames and on top of inner cover.  No bees had their heads in the cells.
2. After temps warmed up enough to check, I found a few bees still alive.  Not enough to cluster when the temps dropped.
3. Found sealed brood in the bottom and top box.
4.  Found stores on the outside frames.  The bottom box is really heavy with capped honey.
5.  I had put fondant on top and it was consumed.   
6. I had treated for mites this fall.  Mite counts were under control.  There wasn't much of a SHB problem.
7.  This was a split I had made in the spring with a new queen.
8.  Due to the sudden cold snap, I wasn't able to get feeder pails on for very long.
9.  I had top ventilation in place.
10. This was a 2 deep, 10 frame hive.

Any thoughts?

Offline Jen

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Re: Looking for answers
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2014, 12:10:49 pm »
Well I'm a novice, but any signs of nosema?
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Offline Riverrat

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Re: Looking for answers
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2014, 12:22:24 pm »
Any signs of moisture. Moisture  would be my first guess even though the hive top was ventilated.  I don't think they starved.  Did you have wax paper under the fondant this could have allowed condensation to form and drip down on the cluster 
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Offline Jen

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Re: Looking for answers
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2014, 12:27:52 pm »
Hmmm, that is a good bit of advice there Rrat. I am making up my fondant this weekend and the recipe said to leave the wax paper under it when putting it on the frames.
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Offline robo

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Re: Looking for answers
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2014, 01:07:20 pm »
My thoughts are they didn't starve because you didn't find bees with heads in cells.  Given they had brood in both boxes I would suggest that the sudden cold snap got to them as they spread out to cover the brood.  I know the "accepted" belief is cold doesn't kill bees, but I disagree.

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Offline Jen

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Re: Looking for answers
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2014, 01:44:42 pm »
Good point Robo...  visualizing the bees spreading out of cluster to cover the brood... makes sense

Baker.. Curious, how cold was your cold snap ?
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Offline Yankee11

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Re: Looking for answers
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2014, 01:55:55 pm »
Thats kinda what I was thinking- brood in december?

I don't think they will leave brood uncovered to cluster.

Offline Perry

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Re: Looking for answers
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2014, 02:45:22 pm »
As to the fondant, when I put it on the hives it has wax paper on top and on the bottom. If it gets really warm in there and you don't have wax paper under the fondant it will sag in between your frames.
It does sound like they were too spread out, trying to cover the brood when they should have been trying to cluster.
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Offline Jen

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Re: Looking for answers
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2014, 03:05:44 pm »
This being my first year for fondant, that is good to know Perry, Thanks!
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Offline riverbee

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Re: Looking for answers
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2014, 06:16:36 pm »
i would tend to think and agree with what rob said bakers.

warm weather/cold weather snap. the bees did not recluster, and as all have said, bees will die covering brood.

sometimes, in 'diagnosing', i consider many factors and also look at where the bees fell from the frames in the hive, or where other bees are on the frames.  did you find them as if a big heap primarily centered on the bottom board, or off to one side or another, or did you find them pretty much evenly dropped on the bottom board underneath all the frames, and maybe some bigger heaps here and there?

hope this makes sense bakers? 
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Offline Lburou

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Re: Looking for answers
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2014, 07:46:07 pm »
Bakers, I lost two hives late in fall this year.  First established hives I've ever lost.  One was robbed out and the other had a queen event I didn't find until too late.  Its a bad feeling for sure!  I feel your pain.   :)

I don't know what happened to your hive, but I've found this link helpful  for figuring out cause of death as we look at dead and dying hives of our Club members.  HTH   :)
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Offline Jen

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Re: Looking for answers
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2014, 09:10:20 pm »
Good link Lee!... This should go on a check marked thread in General Beekeeping or somewhere like that, so everyone can find it at any time ~
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Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Looking for answers
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2014, 11:41:26 pm »
Thanks for everyone's response.  Riverbee: When I opened the hive to find a few bees still alive, there were dead bees on top of the inner cover, on frames, on top of frames and a huge pile on the bottom board in the center.  Those bees that were alive were not robbers. 

Jen: That cold snap went from 70 degrees (I was out checking on my country bees when that front blew in) to 17 degrees in a matter of a few hours.  I talked to a 2nd year beekeeper tonight that lost a hive that week too.

Riverrat: Wax paper: no.  I believe, in all three back yard hives,  I put fondant on top of those darned handi wipe sheets because I realized I didn't have any newspaper.  It didn't seem to bother the other two hives.  They chewed the handi wipes up and carried them out.
 
Yankee: this would have been brood in November, if it makes a difference.  I have tried to figure this out on my own for a month with out any luck.

Robo: I have always heard that about starving as well.  You will find a starved colony with their heads stuck in the cells.

My first reaction to the loss was that they had lost the queen right before the cold snap.  After finding the capped brood, I don't think that was the case. 

Offline Jen

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Re: Looking for answers
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2014, 11:47:55 pm »
Wow Baker! This has been an interesting case and a learning lesson for me and other readers.

Have you shuffled thru the bees to see if the queen was there?
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Offline riverbee

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Re: Looking for answers
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2014, 12:43:43 am »
hard to say bakers, i went back and re-read what you said.  if i lose a strong hive in the fall or before december, first i always suspect that it is typical of a mite problem but you said you had treated.

"there were dead bees on top of the inner cover, on frames, on top of frames and a huge pile on the bottom board in the center. 
1. Found thousands and thousands of dead bees on the bottom board and a few dead still on frames and on top of inner cover.  No bees had their heads in the cells.
3. Found sealed brood in the bottom and top box.
4.  Found stores on the outside frames.  The bottom box is really heavy with capped honey.
5.  I had put fondant on top and it was consumed. " 


just a wild guess here, with dead bees on top of the inner cover, with no fondant left, stores to the outside, and bees piled up in the center......
i would think they may have 'chimneyed up'........? and maybe died from cold starvation?....they covered the brood, and didn't move to stores on the outside.  i would think though you would find dead bees in cells? they will crawl in cells to help 'heat' the brood.
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Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Looking for answers
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2014, 08:21:04 am »
Wow Baker! This has been an interesting case and a learning lesson for me and other readers.

Have you shuffled thru the bees to see if the queen was there?
My thoughts exactly.  If we can learn from this we will all be better.  As I stated earlier, this is the first hive I have lost during winter.  It was an usual year weather wise.  The stores that were brought in were sporadic.  I put a super on this hive, just in case, but didn't pull any honey off.

I thought about looking for the queen, but I was so heart broken... :sad:  It took me a couple of weeks to go out and break down the hive boxes.

Offline Riverrat

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Re: Looking for answers
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2014, 09:29:13 am »


Riverrat: Wax paper: no.  I believe, in all three back yard hives,  I put fondant on top of those darned handi wipe sheets because I realized I didn't have any newspaper.  It didn't seem to bother the other two hives.  They chewed the handi wipes up and carried them out.
 


Just a thought. Did the handi wipes have clorox and other chemicals on them.
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Offline Jen

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Re: Looking for answers
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2014, 01:15:05 pm »
Baker- "I thought about looking for the queen, but I was so heart broken...

     I'm so sorry, I would be heart broken too, like loosing a pet  :sad:
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Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Looking for answers
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2014, 09:21:46 pm »


Riverrat: Wax paper: no.  I believe, in all three back yard hives,  I put fondant on top of those darned handi wipe sheets because I realized I didn't have any newspaper.  It didn't seem to bother the other two hives.  They chewed the handi wipes up and carried them out.
 


Just a thought. Did the handi wipes have clorox and other chemicals on them.

Oh no.  And I used the handi wipes in all three hives.  The other two have been busy chewing them up and removing them in large hunks. :)

Offline Riverrat

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Re: Looking for answers
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2014, 11:03:54 pm »
Been some very good speculations and ideas.  Sometimes loosing a hive and why are things we never will figure out.  A lot of possible variables and not much we can learn from it other than sometimes things like this happen. :sad:
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