New Comb vs Old Comb

[Bakersdozen]

I made the mistake of getting off subject on another thread.  I asked for some clarification and would still like an answer.  I will try to be brief.  This is the thread that I am referring to.  http://www.worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php/topic,3174.0.html

I made this statement.  " I thought bees like to lay eggs in new comb, but like to store honey in old."
Perry replied with this. "Actually Bakersdozen, it's the other way around. Queens like to lay in old dark comb."
I posted the following.
Perry,
It some time for me to find where I read about old comb vs new comb preferences with bees.  This is what I based my statement on regarding the bees preference to storing honey in old comb and the queen laying eggs in the new comb.  Beekeeping Tips and Topics by Elbert R Jaycox, pg. 77.  The chapter is entitled Preference of Honey Bees For New And Old Comb.
Jaycox refers to a previously published article he wrote for Bees and Honey magazine.  " As noted in the article, Dr. John Free found that colonies did not prefer old combs for brood rearing and sometimes reared less brood in old comb... However, bees prefer to store honey in used comb..."  Jaycox goes on to cite another researcher, Annie Betts.  He concludes, "... bees like to put honey in old combs.  They may also begin to rear brood in old combs early in the season simply because that is where the honey is available from the previous year.   Miss Betts noted that bees in the wild build new comb each year and establish their nest in it.  They then store their honey in the old, used comb." 

Jaycox does state that old black comb, so dark that you can't see daylight through it, should be replaced.  He concludes that the cell diameter is greatly reduced from all the cocoons attached to the cell walls.

This book was published in 1982 and I will agree, some of the information is outdated.  Is this theory outdated?  This book was also recommended by Randy Oliver, so that should give it street cred, right?

Can anyone tell me if Jaycox is outdated?

[LazyBkpr]

 I have seen research that showed OLD COMB actually increased the survivability of brood, but that new comb often had a greater amount of brood.. The research suggested that despite the benefits of old comb, the new comb actually produced more young bees...   I have this on my website somewhere, if I can find it so I can give references...

   Anyhow.. yes, the cocoons will build up over time, and eventually reduce the cell diameter.
   Bees store honey above the brood nest. When they build new comb int eh wild, it is usually below the older comb. the queen is pushed down into the newer comb.
   Install a package of bees with one OLD dark frame, and one freshly drawn frame. Come back in five days, you will find eggs in the OLD comb, and nothing in the new comb. Come back three days later, and you will find both are filled with eggs and larvae.
   Given the choice, the queen will go to the old comb first in my experience. That does not necessarily make it the best choice.  I think it may have something to do with the pheremone in the older wax.
 

[iddee]

I am not a scientist, nor entomologist, but my thoughts are that age of comb is secondary. The bees will store honey above and around the pollen /brood. As the nectar comes in, it will go above and the queen will be moved down. As it is consumed, the queen will move up. In my experience, all feral hives have the brood at the bottom, with pollen around it, then honey around that. All excess honey will be above. This brood nest surrounded with pollen will move up and down as the honey above increases and decreases. All comb below the brood will be empty.

Contradictions are welcomed.

[riverbee]

bakers, like iddee said i am neither an entomologist, scientist , or expert......i can only give you what i know from my own experience.  you asked a very valid question, and you didn't sidetrack a thread. i don't know that anyone can give you a definitive answer.

like iddee said, bees will stuff honey and pollen anywhere.

my experience is that queens seem to love darker comb, don't know why. maybe it's just me. with that said, queens will also lay up in pristine honey supers irregardless of what drawn foundation is up in those honey supers when she runs out of room below in the brood chambers.  i have used beeswax foundation and waxed plastic foundation (peirco). pierco waxed foundation comes in white and black.  i can't tell you why, but for some reason, i see better results from queens when this dark foundation is drawn out vs the white foundation.  i have no explanation for this.

to what lazy said (scott), i have read the same research, a good post by scott.

[Jen]

So at what point do we start moving out the dark comb? I like dark comb myself, I can see eggs in it better. But also know that at some point we are supposed to start shuffling the darker comb out. Does the darker comb start to get brittle after so many years?

[LazyBkpr]

Jen;
   Where I live, I am, surrounded by Neonicitinoid corn and beans on three sides. The other direction I have a small town with gardens and yards.
   Between the neonics, the 24-D, Roundup, etc, etc being put on fields, and in town, the garden sprays, flower sprays, the folks spraying their yards to kill dandelions etc, etc..  I try to rotate out comb within 5 years.
   It is ONLY my philosophy, that rotating out at LEAST a percentage of my comb each year limits the build up of those harmful things in the wax.
   If not for this build up over time, I would probably not remove older comb until the queen stopped laying in it.

   Where you live, you may not have fields of corn and beans on your doorstep, but you will still have gardens and yards etc. So it is "my" recommendation that you write the dates on the top of your frames for reference.
    JUST, reference!   Rotate out some of the oldest frames each spring, give your bees 5 to 10 new frames if you use mediums, and 4 to 6 new frames if you use deeps  each year.   Doing this, you will reduce the amount of harmful build up.   You will never eliminate it all..     Marla Spivak and many others have come to the conclusion that the cocktail, or MIXTURE of all the chems people spray on their yards, along with the chems they use to kill mites, is combining in the wax to create a lethal situation.

   I have never found a hive DEAD because I didnt get to rotate out ALL of the 5 year old comb. It isnt an EMERGENCY situation.. rotate more out later, or next spring, but make the attempt to replace a little of it each year, and you will have a happier healthier hive.   The bonus here is that you also help inhibit swarming by providing the bees with employment!

   My own personal philosophy based on what I have read and experienced.

[Bakersdozen]

Thanks for the quick replies.
Jen- thanks for asking a good straight forward question.
iddee (the cut out, trap out king) says "All comb below the brood with be empty"  So, is this the logic behind rotating brood boxes in the spring?

Lazy says "it is "my" recommendation that you write dates on the top of your frames for reference."  KISS plan!  I like it!  And, just for fun one can see how long it actually does take for comb to become that old hard black stuff.  I am definitely implementing this idea. I have just rotated comb out when I observed that old black stuff.

river writes "I see better results from queens when this dark foundation is drawn out vs the white foundation. "  I too have used some of the black foundation in some frames, but I can't say that I have noticed any difference except that I can see eggs better in comb drawn on black foundation.
I have seen queens laying in frames where they were hardly any finished comb at all.  She was laying faster than the workers could draw comb.

So...in the wild, bees have no choice but to build their comb down (in most cases).  Thus the queen must go south to lay her eggs because instinct tells them to keep food stores above them(just like in a Langstroth).  The colony will then work it's way up through the food stores.  She(queen) will continue to lay eggs in the newly emptied cells.  At some point, the queen will have to return to the bottom and start the process all over again.  Is that right?

[iddee]

Almost right. She will not go to the bottom and start over. She will move down slowly as the honey is stored in the upper cells as they emerge. If enough honey comes in, she will be pushed to the bottom. If too much comes in, she will be pushed right out the door with a swarm. That's called backfilling the broodnest.

[Perry]

I know what I am about to say is not scientific, and loathe it is for me to say that manufacturer's necessarily have it all right, but...............
You can't help but notice when ordering plastic frames or foundation, that the majority of the demand is there for black coloured deep and white coloured medium. I was "told" very early on that queens prefer dark comb and would rather not lay eggs in white stuff. This is somewhat born out in my own experience, but if it were quite obvious that the idea did not have some merit, would not the manufacturers alter their production levels accordingly?
Usually the marketplace is based on some level of demand overall, not saying it's right, just saying......................

[Bakersdozen]

That's called backfilling the broodnest.

AHA!  Backfilling, that's new terminology for me.  Good to understand one of the causes of swarming.  Everyone seems to just say, "The queen ran out of room to lay and that started the swarming instinct."  Thanks for the clarification.

Perry, your thoughts on black vs white foundation certainly makes one think.  I was under the assumption that the black foundation was for formal occasions!    Ha Ha I make my self laugh.  Seriously, I don't know why I thought black foundation was for the benefit of the beekeeper with bad eye sight.

I'm learning some serious stuff today.  How cool is that?

[Perry]

Bakersdozen said, "I don't know why I thought black foundation was for the benefit of the beekeeper with bad eye sight".

That is in my mind one of the hugest secondary advantages though!

[iddee]

Maybe it's because most plastic is used by newbees, and they just do what they read on the manufacturer's website and in their catalog??

I have never bought plastic frames nor foundation, but have had it given to me by 2nd and 3rd year beeks.

[Perry]

Maybe it's because most plastic is used by newbees, and they just do what they read on the manufacturer's website and in their catalog??

I have never bought plastic frames nor foundation, but have had it given to me by 2nd and 3rd year beeks.

Your insinuation is that they gave up on the plastic and switched to beeswax? There could be dozens of reasons why 1st and 2nd year keeps have troubles in their first or second years, to make the leap that plastic is responsible is a pretty big assumption. I have seen way too many large commercial keeps run all plastic frames for decades and have success, to be able to lay blame squarely at plastic.
You've been listening to Jack too much! 

[riverbee]

bakers, i do as scott does, i write the date on the brood frame, and any brood frames i have that are not marked, that need to be cycled out, i mark them to be cycled out.  i don't cycle out honey frames as much as i do brood frames.

the plastic vs beeswax foundation will always bring a debate. suffice it to say though, whether we use either one or both, i don't think the bees really care. i know beeks will say they don't have success with it and blame the bees or the foundation. in all honesty, i sometimes think  it's not the bees or the foundation, its the beekeeper and the type of plastic foundation used, timing and placement of it, ie management.

[iddee]

OOOHHHH!!!! I think I hit Perry's funny bone.   

I just stated what I thought, Perry. Even admitted I hadn't used any.

[Perry]

OOOHHHH!!!! I think I hit Perry's funny bone.   

I just stated what I thought, Perry. Even admitted I hadn't used any.

Don't make me come down there!

[iddee]

I will if I can, with coffee pot on and beer in the cooler.

[LazyBkpr]

ROFL  that was good Iddee!  There IS a tender spot in there and it CAN be hit!
   Let me know when your going Perry, I will meet you there!

    As far as NOT having success with plastic or some other foundation, I think Mrs. River is absolutely correct..  It is a matter of management.   I have a Hodgepodge of frames in my hives. Over the years, rotating frames out, and running out of foundation-less, i have put in wood frames with plastic foundation. Wood frames with Wax foundation. Plastic frames with built in small cell foundation, and the bees filled IT ALL, and used it all..   
   I put a piece of small cell foundation in a normal hive, because its all I had at the outyard with me..   Naturally, I forgot which hive it went in.. when I found it again, it was perfectly drawn and filled with capped brood..  I scratched my head a bit, because everyone told me you had to regress your bees first, and here was a hive, with standard 5.4mm large cell foundation, and 4.9 mm small cell right beside it, and the bees really DID NOT care..  they used it.. In fact its still in there..
   So from then on I more or less stopped worrying about foundation and cell size..
   I prefer the foundation-less for three reasons.. its cheaper than buying foundation,  it is easier for "ME" to work with, and the bees seem to choose to draw the foundation - less frames first.
   I like the small cell, because it adds about 20,000 cells to a standard hive. More for the queen to lay in, and hopefully that much longer before they think they need to swarm.  I compromise with natural cell because it costs me less.
  Beyond that, if I have it, I use it.
       I cant see any means of "not having success" unless your really doing something wrong, or you have very picky bees.

[Perry]

       I cant see any means of "not having success" unless your really doing something wrong, or you have very picky bees.

So, when Jack says he isn't having any success getting plastic frames drawn, what you're really saying is...................

[LazyBkpr]

heh, he has really picky bees?