Hive Size

[ChiefBee]

Getting ready to purchase my first couple hives.  I'm thinking of going with 8 frame boxes because I'm not as young as I use to be and would also like my wife to join in the fun.  I'm thinking of just going with medium supers for ease of moving parts and pieces around.  Thoughts?

[LazyBkpr]

Chief.. USE what you think will work best for you when it comes to box size.
   To be perfectly honest with you, if you THINK you should run 8 frame mediums, then thats what you should do.
   Why is it so easy for me to say that?
   Because if you change your mind later, you can swap in some 8 frame deeps. You can swap in ten frame mediums or deeps as well.
   Going from Deeps to mediums isnt as easy.
   I use all ten frame mediums.. OK.. I have a couple hives with ten frame deeps still.. it seems that no matter how hard I try I end up with a couple more deeps each year.. but I am REALLY trying to get everything into mediums..

   Some folks like deeps for their brood chambers, some folks use mediums for everything.  I like my mediums. It appears, the bees dont seem to care.   If you choose to use deeps, You can always cut them down later.
   Box size is one of those things that is adapted to the beekeeper rather than the bees.
   I talk to new beekeepers quite often. MANY of them start out using ten frame deeps because thats how they "THINK" they should start..  They "THINK" ten frame deeps are the norm, and dont want to deviate from that when first starting out..  I advocate starting out using the "normal" methods. But box size has no effect on those methods. I advocate staying away from treatment free, and "natural" beekeeping etc, for at least the first year. Learn to keep your bees alive. THEN dive off into whichever path you think suits you the best. Box size?  Start out with the box size you think will be easiest to handle.
   Hope that is helpful!
   Scott

[Curtchann]

 

[riverbee]

hey chiefbee, great question and good thinking now!

i keep bees in 10 frame langstroth deeps, 10 frame medium supers for honey. with that said, i only use 9 frames in the deeps, and 8 frames in the honey supers. these boxes can get mighty heavy, and seem to get heavier every year............

if i were to switch, i would probably consider the 8 frame hive equipment, but i have too much money invested and a great deal of equipment to change now. 

as far as purchasing all mediums for brood and honey supers, just keep in mind one thing.......although the frames are interchangeable, my HO is you don't want to mix frames of brood and frames for honey extraction up, keep these separate.  what i mean is keep your medium brood frames for brood  only and keep your medium honey frames as honey frames only (for extraction).  if you have to use a medium honey frame to feed bees in the brood section or run short of a brood frame, and use a honey frame in the brood box,  don't cycle it back up to use as a honey frame that you will extract honey from and sell to a customer. again my HO.

also, with mediums, you will be purchasing more equipment and frames to equal what deeps provide. not sure what the equivalent is, think it's two mediums to equal one deep. scott or tefer can chime in on this.

there are many tradeoffs for both, pros and cons.....good luck with making a decision.
hope this helps?

for myself if i had it to do all over again, i'd probably go with the 8 frame hive equipment or even the 3/4 deeps.

[Perry]

My guess would be 3 mediums equals 2 deeps.
I run 10 frame deeps for brood and 10 frame mediums for honey, although I hope to switch to 9 frames in my honey supers this year to ease uncapping.
I don't extract deeps or rarely even have to move them so I don't worry (much) about weight.
LazyBkpr is right in that do what you think best suits you.

[ChiefBee]

I hadn't thought about keeping the brood and honey frames separate. It makes perfect sense though. I expect I end up going 3 deep on my brood if more room is needed. What are thoughts on Cypress verses other wood like pine. Understand there is an additional expense.

[LazyBkpr]

   I have some cypress boxes, most of them seem to be holding up exceptionally well. As i understand it, It depends on the cypress used. Young growth isnt much better than pine..  Check your source.
   If you dont intend to make your own woodenware, and will only have a few hives, then buying the best, longest lasting stuff you can get will be beneficial.  if your going to have quite a few hives, making your own stuff, and being able to replace it when needed will be of greater benefit.

[hamptor]

I'm going into my 3rd year - so still fairly new at this, but I use all 8 frame mediums for everything.  That makes them very interchangeable, and I can usually lift them (unless they're really full of honey - I guess I need to "up" the amount of weights I'm doing at the gym for upper body strength:) 
I also use all Cypress and have been very pleased with how it's holding up.

[Ray]

I currently use 11 frame mediums (small cell 1 1/4 frames (cause it's different)). Seriously thinking about swapping out the OUTER frames, for insulation panels. This would give me an 8 frame brood area ( 9 frames for me).
Here's my take on exchange rates:

9 inches tall x 2 sides x 10 frames x 2 boxes = 360

6 inches tall x two sides x 9 frames x 3 boxes = 324

6 inches x two sides x 8 frames x 3 boxes = 288

6 inches x 2 sides x 8 frames x 4 boxes = 384

[Beeman]

I run all 8 frame mediums for several of the same reasons all ready mentioned. I have run them for 10 years.

[pistolpete]

Whatever size you use, I'd recommend that you stick with one size.  It gives you a lot more options when frame manipulations are called for.  For example you brood nest starts to get honey bound, you can stick a couple of the outside frames up in the honey supers.  Or you can cycle some drawn comb from the supers into the brood boxes.

I use cedar for my hives.  Rough sawn, to encourage the bees to coat the inside with propolis.  I'm not sure if cedar and cypress are the same thing south of the border.  Latin name is Thuja Plicata.

[riverbee]

"Whatever size you use, I'd recommend that you stick with one size.  It gives you a lot more options when frame manipulations are called for.  For example you brood nest starts to get honey bound, you can stick a couple of the outside frames up in the honey supers.  Or you can cycle some drawn comb from the supers into the brood boxes."


one size or different sizes, there is no right or wrong to this, it's what works for you.

as i said before, keep your brood frames and honey frames separate. IMHO, i disagree with the practice of mixing these up. thats just my HO.

[LazyBkpr]

I know Mrs. River disagrees with mixing the frames ,. and as a general practice i dont, and most other beeks who use all the same size frames dont.   After seeing the Mite droppings. Old cocoons and knowing a lot of residue from pesticides, Mitacides, etc in the pollen collect in the wax makes these frames unappealing to harvest honey from..
    The fact of the matter is, that its NOT that easy to mess up which frames go where. The nice clean frames are honey frames, the darker frames are brood frames..   It is truthfully as simple as that..
   Once in a while, the queen will get up in a super and lay eggs..  Not a good thing, but not the end of the world either.. put her down, put the excluder on, and the bees will back fill those cells with honey when the brood emerges. I dont often have problems with queens in the supers...   C.C. Miller sums it up pretty well;

From; The Hive and the honey bee, page 139
      I think I hear you say, "But wouldn't it pay to use excluders for the sake of keeping the queen out of the supers?"
   I may reply that the queen so seldom goes up into a super that not one section (frame) in a hundred, sometimes not more than one in a thousand will be found troubled with brood. So on the whole I hardly think that all the advantages to be gained from using excluders would pay for the time and trouble of using them.     
      C.C. Miller, 1911


    The bees clean those cells before they back fill them. Honey is naturally anti bacterial. If extracted, those few cells that did have brood will have nothing in them that is harmful.
   Rotating the honey combs down into the brood nest as you rotate out old comb keeps the queen laying, and it keeps the honey comb new and fresh. When starting a new hive, that dawn comb from last years supers is like having a pile of gold laying about. If you use deeps for the brood chamber, and mediums for supers.. your just out of luck, or more to the point, the bees are. They have to draw new comb for the queen to lay in.
    Having comb for the queen is a LOT more beneficial than having drawn honey comb..   The drawn comb for the queen will insure you have the population to draw new honey comb. NOT having drawn brood comb means the smaller population has to draw that comb, and it takes a lot longer, so it also takes longer for them to build up..   When starting a package on DRAWN comb, your splitting the difference between a package and a nuc..  No, you didnt already have brood like you would in a nuc, but the queen can begin laying the very moment she is ready.

   No, dont use brood comb for honey.. but yes, if you NEED to, you certainly can... but ONLY if you use all the same size frames.

   As you can see, everyone likes a different method. Some use more frames in the brood boxes, some use less.. we range from 11 frame brood boxes to 9 frame.   
    I could argue all day about how using all mediums is WAY nicer than using different sizes for brood and honey, but every one else will chime in with their own "good" reasons for doing it their way.
   Mrs. River and Perry like their plastic foundation. Jack likes his WAX foundation. I like NO foundation.........  But I honestly have a little bit of EVERYTHING..   I might pick on stinky plastic, but it WORKS..   The bees, if given the choice between plastic, wax, or an empty frame typically choose the empty frame, then the wax, and when FORCED will draw the plastic....   Bees given NO choice will usually hop right on a plastic frame and get it drawn..
   Read everyone's reasons and methods, do your studying and then decide how YOUR method is going to work. If you think there might be a problem or conflict in developing your own method, ask right here!
   Looking forward to you getting the bees so we can hear about it...  Hope you have a camera!
   Scott

[Curtchann]

 

[riverbee]

"After seeing the Mite droppings. Old cocoons and knowing a lot of residue from pesticides, Mitacides, etc in the pollen collect in the wax makes these frames unappealing to harvest honey from.. "

i agree. brood combs are contaminated.  if you have treated with antibiotics and/or some miticide and rotated that comb up to use for honey extraction, i believe this is not a good practice and for myself, i couldn't honestly sell that honey to a customer and/or harvest the cappings/wax to use in lip balm recipes to sell to customers. 

[brooksbeefarm]

I run mostly 2 deeps for brood and med. supers for honey,i don't have enough queen excluders for all my hives and sometimes the queen will chimney through the middle to the top super. When i see this i will hunt and put the queen back in the brood chamber and put an excluder on or a honey barrier on. The brood will hatch out and the cells will be cleaned and back filled with honey in those dark cells, i don't think the color of the comb has anything to do with the color or taste of the honey, so i don't worry about using comb that had brood in it (once or twice) for honey, unless i'm going for comb honey. JMHO. Jack
PS, now if the dark comb was on stinky plastic foundation that would be worrisome .

[Perry]

I agreed with everything Jack just said 
and then he had to spoil it all by saying something silly!

[LazyBkpr]

LOL

[tecumseh]

we have been discussing an issue with the ABF educational committee concerning the advantage of keeping things simple from the front side and recommending a bit of standardization in term of equipment and training of new beekeeper.  the fellow who runs the committee seem to suggest that when you reduce the variable the learning curve becomes a bit less steep, it allow you to focus on the important and critical factors in maintaining honeybees and basically has the potential to doubled the new beekeepers who succeeded and greatly reduced the drop out rate.  I would like to hear from folks like Jack and Iddee (that is the old hands on this board) if they see this as a good approach < certainly I am not excluding anyone else from commenting and look forward to everyone's input.  hopefully Chiefbee I am not derailing your thread.

[iddee]

As you know, tec, the one thing I give most freely is my opinion.      

I've posted many times to newbees. Start with a basic 2 hive setup with a solid bottom board, a deep, and another box, inner lid and telescoping lid. The second box is a medium honey super in the deep south. The second box is a medium brood chamber extension in the temperate zone. The second box is a second deep brood chamber in the north. After the first summer, they will know what stores they need for their winter from local clubs and the forums.

After the first year, they can start varying their setups and procedures as they learn.  Don't try to be a stunt pilot the same time you are learning to fly.