Author Topic: eight frame hives (Read 6955 times)

tedh · « **on:** May 04, 2016, 06:47:33 pm »

Hi Everyone. I'm not sure how to phrase this so I'll just start. In our area (maybe everywhere?) we use 2 deep or 3 medium 10 frame boxes for brood. If a person was using 8 frame deeps for brood would he use 2 boxes or would he need to use 3? That wasn't too bad. Then again, I know what I'm trying to ask! Thanks! Ted

apisbees · « **Reply #1 on:** May 04, 2016, 08:18:42 pm »

From the standpoint of available comb area to the queens and colonies needs, 2-8 frame supers do provide enough brood space. A little more attention needs to be paid to the bees bot filling and packing out the brood chamber to early in the season. This is a hive management issue that could require going into the brood boxes and opening up to allow more room for the queen to lay.
Langstroth experimented with many hive designs and configurations and came to the conclusion that the best design for him in keeping was to use 2-10 frame deeps for the brood chamber. This design allowed for the room the queen needed, with room for honey and nectar stores The way the bees like to have stores surrounding the brood chamber. Bees like to have the frame and 1/2 of honey and 1/2 frame of pollen on the outsides of the cluster In a 10 frame that leves 6 frames for brood in between. If you allow the bees to do this in a 8 frame set up you are down to 4 frames of brood. The solution is more checks into the brood chambers pulling up honey bound frames, or adding a medium as a 3rd brood box.
As you pointed out the weight of the 8 frame deep and the 10 frame medium are close to the same weight when full. 3 mediums provides the same space as 2 deeps, allows the bees to store the honey to the out sides and keeps the hive height of the brood chambers lower.
All this being said it comes down to what is best for you and what will allow you to be able to still keep bees with our bad backs, arthritis and carpel tunnel hands, sore and titanium replaced hips and knees.
To get the weight down to the least, using all 8 frame mediums will keep the full honey supers under 50 lbs and 4 mediums will provide the queen with the area needed for uninterrupted brood rearing. It will allow for frames to be pulled up if needed to alleviate congestion in the brood chambers.
Since Langstroth's design of the 10 frame hive back in 1852 lots of others have tried to improve on his designs, Hoffman did by introducing the self spacing frame that is the standard in the industry now. Dadant in the 1890's built a jumbo super 11 1/2 inch in hight and the super was built square holding 12 or13 frames. This design did meet all the needs and requirements of the bees but was not so practical for the beekeeper. and never caught on. I played with the jumbo frames on 2 hives that where 10 frames. In theory there is sufficient area for all the brood and queen laying space needed for the colony. But if the bees plugged the brood chamber by storing honey in more than just the outside frame, opening up the brood chamber was difficult. The frames where to large to fit in the extractor, moving them up was not an option due to different super height.
In designing his hive Langdtroth was looking to make keeping bees easier by making it more practical. So what ever system or setup makes is the most practical and enjoyable for you Is going to be the best system for you. Just what ever setup you decide on keep in mind the basic needs of the bees and adjust your management system to suit.

apisbees · « **Reply #2 on:** May 04, 2016, 08:24:05 pm »

omnimirage started a thread that asked this question here is a link to the thread. and all the comments.
http://www.worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php/topic,5374.0.html

neillsayers · « **Reply #3 on:** May 04, 2016, 10:23:18 pm »

Apis,

Thanks for all that info.
Going to the link next. I started with 8-frames due to my blown disk and oncoming old age. I really want to do this as long as I can shuffle out to the bee yard.

tedh · « **Reply #4 on:** May 05, 2016, 08:33:09 am »

Thanks apis!

Lburou · « **Reply #5 on:** May 05, 2016, 01:25:48 pm »

Quote from: neillsayers on May 04, 2016, 10:23:18 pm

...I started with 8-frames due to my blown disk and oncoming old age...

I don't think you will regret choosing 8 frame equipment Neil.

Ted, some people advocate use of medium supers, or all mediums, arguing that more spaces between supers gives bees easier access to honey during winter, resulting in fewer instances of the bees starving because they will not leave the brood unprotected. In B.C., I'd expect that to be a factor. I wintered bees in a deep and medium in a mild region of Alaska with no trouble. I would think you'd need 5 or 6 mediums full of honey to winter in your area. HTH

tedh · « **Reply #6 on:** May 06, 2016, 08:45:57 am »

The reason I asked the question is that I'm selling a new beekeeper his first bees. He wil use 8 frame boxes which I have no experiance with. I will strongly advise joining this forum. Since he's a close friend of a brother I told him I'd bring the bees to him (an hour away) and install into his hive. I'm begining to wonder if that is wise. Here's what I see: We screen the bees in (makes them pissy), bounce an hour down the road (makes them pissier), open the hive to transfer frames - not the best weather (makes them REALLY pissy). What do you guys/gals think of this? Good or bad idea? Thanks, Ted

iddee · « **Reply #7 on:** May 06, 2016, 08:59:05 am »

Your smoker is your friend.

apisbees · « **Reply #8 on:** May 06, 2016, 09:18:34 am »

It would have been easier to of had his hive dropped off at your house in advance, install the nuc into the hive and them on moving/delivery day just screen and move them, pull the screen on the other end.
It is what is called Live and Learn. The bees might be happy to see you!!!

Lburou · « **Reply #9 on:** May 06, 2016, 09:47:13 am »

I do it the way Apis described, it works pretty well.

lazy shooter · « **Reply #10 on:** May 06, 2016, 10:57:15 am »

I don't know enough about bees to make a scientific comment on eight frame versus 10 frame hive boxes, but at 77 years of age 20 percent less weight is a good thing. I have both hive sizes, and I can tell you a 10 frame deep full of honey is a load to pick up from a hive box. I am going toward all eight frame equipment and medium sized honey supers.

Lburou · « **Reply #11 on:** May 06, 2016, 12:19:48 pm »

I should have added earlier, that I just put a NUC in a new Flow Hive here at my house this morning, with a plan like Apis described above. Come by and see it if you want.

apisbees · « **Reply #12 on:** May 06, 2016, 02:26:56 pm »

Lee I want to see pictures. It is a customers flow hive? With the 8 frame brood super and 6 frame flow super? So they are 2 to 3 weeks away from having the flow super put on top???
Pictures and explain please.

tedh · « **Reply #13 on:** May 06, 2016, 03:03:19 pm »

Yeah, This guy has an eight frame flow hive, I guess. I'm getting info bits and pieces at a time. I'm not even sure if HE really knows what he has. It's a little late for doing things differently now so I'll probably just do it, realizing and keeping in mind that "My smoker is my friend!". Thanks everyone. Ted

LazyBkpr · « **Reply #14 on:** May 06, 2016, 08:32:19 pm »

Make him or your brother take the nuc to the location and set it beside the intended home/unscreen.. next day (or five) you go over and transfer for him. But yeah...l smoke, give them a few minutes to load up on nectar/honey then do the deed...

riverbee · « **Reply #15 on:** May 06, 2016, 08:49:15 pm »

"Since he's a close friend of a brother I told him I'd bring the bees to him (an hour away) and install into his hive. I'm begining to wonder if that is wise. Here's what I see: We screen the bees in (makes them pissy), bounce an hour down the road (makes them pissier), open the hive to transfer frames - not the best weather (makes them REALLY pissy). What do you guys/gals think of this? Good or bad idea?"

ted, sometimes we don't always have an optimal choice on hiving bees. in your situation, if it is possible to let them settle down a little before the transfer, it does help, and maybe use a little sugar syrup spray on them for 'pissy attitude adjustment'.......they will be too busy licking each other off rather than flying in the air (will minimize flight to a certain degree), and flying in your face/stinging, just a thought. they are just cranky for being locked up and will be disoriented. good luck!

also, as iddee said, use a little smoke if need be, i rarely use smoke when hiving,(but always have it ready) sugar syrup seems to work well for me.

Lburou · « **Reply #16 on:** May 06, 2016, 10:36:08 pm »

Ted, we are in the same boat on these flow hives. A new Club member received the gift of a flow hive last Christmas. She is very eager and interested in learning and will probably slip into beekeeping pretty well. I studied the top, bottom, inner cover and hive body enough to satisfy my curiosity, but didn't take pictures before placing the NUC in it. But I did take a couple pictures this evening that might shed some light on details of interest concerning its construction and design.

I put a robbing screen on because it is right next to a strong hive and robbing pressure is high. Apis, here are a couple pictures, of course it is only necessary to use the basic hive at this point.

Note how the hive body tilts backward, I suppose that is to drain the honey when the time comes.

The top is of peculiar design in that there is a large volume of space above the innercover and the back end of the top does not overlap the inner cover, so that will leave direct access for wax moths and hive beetles unless something is changed.

tedh · « **Reply #17 on:** May 07, 2016, 12:33:14 pm »

The install went very well, nothing like I imagined. I did use the syrup spray, thanks for that idea riverbee! The 8 frame flow hive seems to have an abundance of room on either side of the centered frames. Looked to me like too much space. This will be interesting. I did suggest this forum (several times) among other suggestions, reading material, etc. We'll have to see if he shows up. I hope so. For his sake and also for mine/ours. It would be neat to follow the progress of a flow hive. Thanks Everyone, Ted

Lburou · « **Reply #18 on:** May 07, 2016, 03:23:24 pm »

Quote from: tedh on May 07, 2016, 12:33:14 pm

...The 8 frame flow hive seems to have an abundance of room on either side of the centered frames...

Yes Ted, the Flow Hive width is 14 inches, that leaves about 12.5 inches inside for the frames. 14 inch width in equipment for 8 frames is common. It allows a big frame feeder and 7 frames. The extra room is nice (especially for a beginner) when manipulating frames. The extra space hasn't caused me much inconvenience.

apisbees · « **Reply #19 on:** May 07, 2016, 03:51:50 pm »

It is important to keep the frames pushed tight together especially when first drawing foundation, the bees will use the outside of these frames for honey and will draw them out further.
Whoever designed and figured out the width of the 8 frame super did not follow Langstroth's formula. At first there didn't seam to be a set size for the 8 frame box and 10 frame queen excluders were cut down to fit the needed size. after queen excluders became available in the 8 frame width the supers conformed to that size.